pre trib rapture (believer, scriptures, Moses, pray)
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Thanks ILNC. That's because I don't reject as 'dead doctrines of men' the ministries of men who have been given the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher. In every generation God sees to it that there are qualified pastors who faithfully study and teach His word. The Holy Spirit is the true mentor, but God never meant for believers to forego the communication of His word through the pastor/teacher. Ephesians 4:11-17 bears this out. Without a qualified pastor, a believer can only get so much from the Bible. And as can be seen by many on this forum, many of whom are not even saved but who merely profess to be believers, trying to study the Bible ONLY on their own generally leads to a false understanding of what God has set forth in his word. And these very same people will tell you that they have had some great revelation from the Holy Spirit. They have not. They have only allowed themselves to be deceived by the ruler of this world. And of course those who merely profess to be believers but who are in fact spiritually dead and on their way to hell are incapable of any spiritual understanding. With the exception of the Gospel which the Holy Spirit will make perspicacious to the spiritually dead unbeliever so that he may come to believe in Christ if he so chooses.
But there is so very much more to learn.
When your Father is The Truth it is of your "spiritual DNA" to know the truth. The idea you do anything on your own when the Holy Spirit abides withing is false. John spoke of these things, "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1Jo 2:27 KJV)I recognize this was spoken to the body of Christ. This is indicated by the use of the plural "ye" in this version. We are functioning as, "We are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones" (Eph 5:30 KJV) Many of us have not accepted what is by practice taught by becoming passive non-functioning audiences enabling a paid professional preacher. We have not given our gifts and blessings away to these usurpers of the headship of Christ. Many of us have determined not to hide the anger God has for this other man between Him and His wife, telling her she must go through him if she would love her husband.
The great problem in this time of apostasy is what the contemporary religious systems call The Pastor. It was popularized in the Seventeenth Century as Lutheran pietists began calling their priests pastors. As practiced it is the enemy of every member functioning. It is another mediator; whereas, Jesus died to bring us into direct intimacy with God. He told us there is but one mediator. It is not surprising you perhaps blotted it out of your mind since there is truth expressed both before and after the "one mediator" statement that you repeatedly revile as of the devil. The passage in context is : "For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1Ti 2:3-6 KJV)
(Notice what follows is a listing of Bible facts:) The noun poimen or, "shepherd" occurs 16 times. 4 refer to those who take care of their wooly flocks on hillsides. 11 of the remaining 12 refer to the person of Jesus, the Good and the Great Shepherd. Only one time does it refer to other men for spiritual shepherding. To indicate its singular status the King James revisers used the word "pastors" just this once. Not only is it plural, so it cannot be used to justify the "one man show" practice, but it is connected with teachers in the Greek. It is better rendered "shepherding teachers" because they are two sides of but one coin. Nothing warrents taking the plural term "Pastor" out this list to justify the present hierarchical bottleneck that characterizes the blasphemous use of this title of honor from other men. The other functions in Ephesians 4 are, "SOME apostles, SOME prophets, SOME evangelists," and the last category in this list is, "SOME shepherding teachers." There is no SOME in the originals between pastors and teachers. This is indicated by the KJV. There is nothing in this passage of Scripture suggesting as so many teach, that each is a successively higher authority, the apostle being the biggest boss of all. It is not about men as bosses. These are descriptive of how Christ, the anointing, functions in various members.
All these things are potentially in everyone who has the indwelling Spirit of God because these are the ways Jesus acts. Many never learn to exercise the gift of God within them, however. They are relegated to an audience. Few mature to apostle or prophet; yet without them divisions keep arising from trying to make teachers foundational. But these functions are, "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..." (Eph 4:12) The commas in the preceding passage are not there in the original. Those who have attained to these various functions perfect or mature the saints so they will do the work of the serving the body of Christ, serving them until the members of that body are building up (edifying) that body. These apostles and prophets are not to replace the body of Christ functioning, but are to raise it up to function, not until those few on stage are matured, but, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:13 KJV) All Jesus is and does may be developed in each of our lives when we come together. This is not allowed in the "Pastor system" apostasy of our time.
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It is a misrepresentation for Mike to say I am against the Trinity. I've told him before that I believe the Father is God, the Spirit is God and the Son is God. I also mention that we are part of Him, "of His flesh and of his bones." (see John 17) I also believe many "trinitarians" make virtually three Gods while there is only ONE. "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." (1Jo 5:20 KJV)
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 03-11-2010 at 10:38 PM..
There will be no universal knowledge of God until the Millennium. The Kingdom age. Isa. 11-9 ''...for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord.'' This is not true today.
Nonsense. After Jesus' Rebirth as Spirit (resurrection) the Holy Spirit became available to ALL human consciousnesses (Spirits). Your teachers and their "ages" are teaching "precepts and doctrines of men" . . . not truth of the LIVING WORD OF GOD and His Holy Spirit who is with present with us today.
1) In post #9 you gave your opinion about seminary trained pastors.
2) In this post you further show your hostility toward pastors and for the rapture.
If you were a pastor I would advise you to step down from the pulpit and get yourself into a qualifed seminary and learn something about the word of God. God holds pastor's responsible for correctly teaching His word.
The Tribulation is God's judgment on both Israel and on the gentile nations. The church is neither Jew or Gentile but is Church. A new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 3:28. As such the church has no part in the judgment that occurs during the Tribulation.
As the dispensation of the church began on the day of Pentecost some 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, the chuch-age will terminate with the rapture in which the church is transfered from earth to heaven prior to and for the duration of the Tribulation which is the resumption of the age of Israel which still has seven years to run. The Tribulation is Daniels 70th week, Daniel 9:24-27. It is referred to in Jeremiah 30:4-7 as the time of Jacobs Trouble. Not the time of the churches trouble.
In Revelation 19:7-9 the entire church is seen in Heaven following the Judgment or Bema Seat of Christ and just prior to her return to the earth with Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
Anyone who WANTS to orient themselves to the truth and learn something about the rapture can go to these links.
There's all sorts of research on the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture by Theologians and others available on the web. Those who are truly interested in looking into it can do so.
Many modern seminary trained pastors are taught the pre-tribulation rapture which is a FALSE TEACHING and they are leading many of the sheep astray.It describes much better than in Ezekiel than I ever could examples of the false shepherds leading the sheep astray.
I rely on ONE SHEPHERD and His name is JESUS. [Ezekiel 34:23]
God says what is going to happen as we transition into the age of Tabernacles. The beginning is the Barley Harvest. Simply, He will bring a humble mature people, who hear Him and love His appearing, into complete victory, even over death. What they say and do will come to determine what happens among the sons of men. While contested at first, the judgment will sit and those He has chosen will rule with Him. Through them God will stun the world with His love.
Hebrews 8:10 ''For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days, says the Lord: I will put my Laws into their minds, And I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God.''
Today, during the church age God communicates through the written word. And under the teaching ministry of a qualified pastor, Bible doctrine is transferred from the Bible into the soul of the believer where the Holy Spirit who is the true mentor makes the spiritual phenomenon perspicacious to the believer for the purpose of spiritual growth. God's system for learning the word of God is shown in Ephesians 4:11-16.
No this is the essence of Hebrews 8:7-13 (King James Version)
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
Jesus brought the New Covenant . . . 1 John 2:27 (New Living Translation)
27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
When your Father is The Truth it is of your "spiritual DNA" to know the truth. The idea you do anything on your own when the Holy Spirit abides withing is false. John spoke of these things, "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1Jo 2:27 KJV)I recognize this was spoken to the body of Christ. This is indicated by the use of the plural "ye" in this version. We are functioning as, "We are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones" (Eph 5:30 KJV) Many of us have not accepted what is by practice taught by becoming passive non-functioning audiences enabling a paid professional preacher. We have not given our gifts and blessings away to these usurpers of the headship of Christ. Many of us have determined not to hide the anger God has for this other man between Him and His wife, telling her she must go through him if she would love her husband.
The great problem in this time of apostasy is what the contemporary religious systems call The Pastor. It was popularized in the Seventeenth Century as Lutheran pietists began calling their priests pastors. As practiced it is the enemy of every member functioning. It is another mediator; whereas, Jesus died to bring us into direct intimacy with God. He told us there is but one mediator. It is not surprising you perhaps blotted it out of your mind since there is truth expressed both before and after the "one mediator" statement that you repeatedly revile as of the devil. The passage in context is : "For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1Ti 2:3-6 KJV)
(Notice what follows is a listing of Bible facts The noun poimen or, "shepherd" occurs 16 times. 4 refer to those who take care of their wooly flocks on hillsides. 11 of the remaining 12 refer to the person of Jesus, the Good and the Great Shepherd. Only one time does it refer to other men for spiritual shepherding. To indicate its singular status the King James revisers used the word "pastors" just this once. Not only is it plural, so it cannot be used to justify the "one man show" practice, but it is connected with teachers in the Greek. It is better rendered "shepherding teachers" because they are two sides of but one coin. Nothing warrents taking the plural term "Pastor" out this list to justify the present hierarchical bottleneck that characterizes the blasphemous use of this title of honor from other men. The other functions in Ephesians 4 are, "SOME apostles, SOME prophets, SOME evangelists," and the last category in this list is, "SOME shepherding teachers." There is no SOME in the originals between pastors and teachers. This is indicated by the KJV. There is nothing in this passage of Scripture suggesting as so many teach, that each is a successively higher authority, the apostle being the biggest boss of all. It is not about men as bosses. These are descriptive of how Christ, the anointing, functions in various members.
All these things are potentially in everyone who has the indwelling Spirit of God because these are the ways Jesus acts. Many never learn to exercise the gift of God within them, however. They are relegated to an audience. Few mature to apostle or prophet; yet without them divisions keep arising from trying to make teachers foundational. But these functions are, "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..." (Eph 4:12) The commas in the preceding passage are not there in the original. Those who have attained to these various functions perfect or mature the saints so they will do the work of the serving the body of Christ, serving them until the members of that body are building up (edifying) that body. These apostles and prophets are not to replace the body of Christ functioning, but are to raise it up to function, not until those few on stage are matured, but, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:13 KJV) All Jesus is and does may be developed in each of our lives when we come together. This is not allowed in the "Pastor system" apostasy of our time.
_____________________________________
It is a misrepresentation for Mike to say I am against the Trinity. I've told him before that I believe the Father is God, the Spirit is God and the Son is God. I also mention that we are part of Him, "of His flesh and of his bones." (see John 17) I also believe many "trinitarians" make virtually three Gods while there is only ONE. "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." (1Jo 5:20 KJV)
As I said, you have a hangup with words. Pastor/teacher is a proper term. Then your problem is with the word 'Trinity'. You believe in the trinity but you don't like the word. Deal with it.
And you just have no idea what you're talking about. Apostles had the highest authority in the church, as they had authority over all the churches whereas the pastor had authority only over his own church. There are no apostles today. John was the last of them. When he died, the spiritual gift was not perpetuated as the church was well established.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-12-2010 at 03:01 AM..
No this is the essence of Hebrews 8:7-13 (King James Version)
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
Jesus brought the New Covenant . . . 1 John 2:27 (New Living Translation)
27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
The passage does not imply that a believer has an inner guiding light independent of being taught by a pastor. The passage is addressing guarding against being deceived by false teachers.
The Holy Spirit takes the doctrine that has been taught to the believer and makes it understandable. Then He (the Holy Spirit) works with that doctrine in the soul of the believer to execute the spiritual life in the believer.
Go into this link and scroll down to the commentaries.
Many modern seminary trained pastors are taught the pre-tribulation rapture which is a FALSE TEACHING and they are leading many of the sheep astray.It describes much better than in Ezekiel than I ever could examples of the false shepherds leading the sheep astray.
I rely on ONE SHEPHERD and His name is JESUS. [Ezekiel 34:23]
People just don't listen. The church is in Heaven during the Tribulation as is seen in Revelation 19:7-9. The church returns to the earth with Christ.
I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this with people who have no interest in the truth. For anyone who is interested in the truth, see my earlier post for some links provided. Those who prefer to keep their heads buried in the sand, feel free to continue to do so.
They are dead until read through the "mind of Christ" with the guidance of the Holy Spirit within. Nonsense. After Jesus' Rebirth as Spirit (resurrection) the Holy Spirit became available to ALL human consciousnesses (Spirits). Your teachers and their "ages" are teaching "precepts and doctrines of men" . . . not truth of the LIVING WORD OF GOD and His Holy Spirit who is with present with us today.
As I said, your beliefs are not Christian. You are a new ager. The Holy Spirit only indwells the body of the church age believer. He is not ''available to ALL human consciousnesses.''
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The noun poimen or, "shepherd" occurs 16 times. 4 refer to those who take care of their wooly flocks on hillsides. 11 of the remaining 12 refer to the person of Jesus, the Good and the Great Shepherd. Only one time does it refer to other men for spiritual shepherding. To indicate its singular status the King James revisers used the word "pastors" just this once. Not only is it plural, so it cannot be used to justify the "one man show" practice, but it is connected with teachers in the Greek. It is better rendered "shepherding teachers" because they are two sides of but one coin. Nothing warrents taking the plural term "Pastor" out this list to justify the present hierarchical bottleneck that characterizes the blasphemous use of this title of honor from other men. The other functions in Ephesians 4 are, "SOME apostles, SOME prophets, SOME evangelists," and the last category in this list is, "SOME shepherding teachers." There is no SOME in the originals between pastors and teachers. This is indicated by the KJV. There is nothing in this passage of Scripture suggesting as so many teach, that each is a successively higher authority, the apostle being the biggest boss of all. It is not about men as bosses. These are descriptive of how Christ, the anointing, functions in various members.
