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Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
The prince/sar of Tyrus was the power, the prince, who ruled from the heavenlies, just as the prince/sar of Persia was a heavenly ruler who was ruing persia, and consequently, the earthly prince of Persia, Cyrus.
When the heavenly sar of Persia was "bound" by Gabriel and Michael, then Cyrus, below, was free to let Israel return.
The same goes for all rulers on earth who are themselves governed by heavenly sars. Michael is the heavenly Sar of Israel,states the angel, in Daniel.
There is the little matter of YHWH keeping score against the heavenly sars, and settling those scores in His own time, causing the earthly rulers much ruin, then, who are under those sars in the heavenlies.
For instance: many hundreds of years after the Pharaoh of the Exodus was dead and buried, the statement that Pharaoh made, as recorded in the book of Jasher [the Upright record mentioned in Samuel and Judges] was inspired by the proud sar of Egypt who ruled Egypt from the heavenlies, and YHWH declares a score to settle with him, as I said, many years after that fact, when the Pharaoh who spoke by inspiration of the heavenly sar was long dead.
Quote:
Jasher 79: 46-52
And Pharaoh turned to Moses and Aaron and said to them, I know not the Lord whom you have declared, neither will I send his people.
And they answered and said to the king, The Lord God of Gods is his name, and he proclaimed his name over us from the days of our ancestors, and sent us, saying, Go to Pharaoh and say unto him, Send my people that they may serve me.
Now therefore send us, that we may take a journey for three days in the wilderness, and there may sacrifice to him, for from the days of our going down to Egypt, he has not taken from our hands either burnt offering, oblation or sacrifice, and if thou wilt not send us, his anger will be kindled against thee, and he will smite Egypt either with the plague or with the sword.
And Pharaoh said to them, Tell me now his power and his might; and they said to him, He created the heaven and the earth, the seas and all their fishes, he formed the light, created the darkness, caused rain upon the earth and watered it, and made the herbage and grass to sprout, he created man and beast and the animals of the forest, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea, and by his mouth they live and die.
Surely he created thee in thy mother's womb, and put into thee the breath of life, and reared thee and placed thee upon the royal throne of Egypt, and he will take thy breath and soul from thee, and return thee to the ground whence thou wast taken. And the anger of the king was kindled at their words, and he said to them, But who amongst all the Gods of nations can do this? my river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
And he drove them from him, and he ordered the labor upon Israel to be more severe than it was yesterday and before.
But the score to settle with the power, the sar, who was behind the Pharaoh of the Exodus, will be settled with the heavenly ruler. Hundreds of years later, after that Pharaoh was dead and buried, YHWH said this:
Eze 29:3-6 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.
But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
And I will leave thee [thrown] into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.
And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I [am] the LORD, because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]
The prince/sar of Tyrus was the power, the prince, who ruled from the heavenlies, just as the prince/sar of Persia was a heavenly ruler who was ruing persia, and consequently, the earthly prince of Persia, Cyrus.
When the heavenly sar of Persia was "bound" by Gabriel and Michael, then Cyrus, below, was free to let Israel return.
The same goes for all rulers on earth who are themselves governed by heavenly sars. Michael is the heavenly Sar of Israel,states the angel, in Daniel.
There is the little matter of YHWH keeping score against the heavenly sars, and settling those scores in His own time, causing the earthly rulers much ruin, then, who are under those sars in the heavenlies.
For instance: many hundreds of years after the Pharaoh of the Exodus was dead and buried, the statement that Pharaoh made, as recorded in the book of Jasher [the Upright record mentioned in Samuel and Judges] was inspired by the proud sar of Egypt who ruled Egypt from the heavenlies, and YHWH declares a score to settle with him, as I said, many years after that fact, when the Pharaoh who spoke by inspiration of the heavenly sar was long dead.
But the score to settle with the power, the sar, who was behind the Pharaoh of the Exodus, will be settled with the heavenly ruler. Hundreds of years later, after that Pharaoh was dead and buried, YHWH said this:
Eze 29:3-6 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.
But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
And I will leave thee [thrown] into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.
And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I [am] the LORD, because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]
This sounds Frank Peretti - ish... I love his books but I wouldn't claim them as doctrine.
I think it is that reason that I have not addressed your other posts.
When I was a Christian I believed in the Bible from end to end. It never even entered into my mind to study the surrounding world that shaped its views because I firmly believed that it (the bible) was literally "god-breathed" by god, free of pagan influence and other corruption. Boy was I ever wrong!
The ancient Israelites were of the opinion that ALL things, good or bad, were attributed to god, but they believed that when 'bad' happened, it was for a designed purpose, one orchestrated by god. We see examples of this here and there. One example was the story of Saul where we read that god sent an evil spirit to torment him into madness because god rejected him (of course he had the symptoms of manic depression/bi-polar/schizophrenia but the biblical writer had no idea what any of these things were so he called Saul's affliction an "evil spirit' but I digress to work within his thinking). Satan is not included in this picture. God sends the evil upon Saul.
Another story is the story of king Ahab where we read that god consults with a 'lying spirit' to go and put lies in the mouths of Ahab's false prophets. Again, we read of no Satan. God is responsible for the dirty work in league with agents to carry out the deed.
Apparently this was not a problem to the early Israelites, but when they came in contact with the Persians and their complex, yet appealing, religious system, there appeared some marked additions in Jewish religion and one of them was this concept of an evil entity who rivaled a perfect god. The Israelites had no such concept.
Israelite theology posed a problem that Persian religion addressed. How? Well in Israelite theology, god was responsible for the child dying, the outbreak of disease, the pains, the sufferings, the pestilences and so on just as much as he was responsible for the bountiful harvest, the fertile woman, the good fortune. This is why Israelite religion was so big on laws. It was believed that good fortune was evidence of a righteous life by living up to the laws. For the Israelite, there was no afterlife so god's blessing or curse upon a life occurred in this world.
For the Persian, their god was all pure and completely removed from any and every evil. Evil was the sole domain of a rival god by the name of Angra Mainyu (Ahriman). This allowed some flexibility because it absolved their supreme god of any wrong doing while simultaneously being able to pin it on an evil entity. In addition, both of these forces were locked in an eternal struggle against each other played out in a spiritual world where spiritual forces of good and evil battled each other. The battleground was not only in spiritual "high places" but also in the hearts of men where man was constantly bombarded with "spiritual warfare" within his heart.
The Jews were under Jewish rule for over 200 years and unlike the other Gentile nations that ruled over them (Babylon, Greece and Rome), all of which the Jews fiercely rejected, they had a rather amicable relationship with the Persians and flourished. There is hardly a bad word said about the Persians in Jewish literature so it is quite likely the Jews were more open Persian religious influence including the concept of a rival spirit who was both enemy of god and men. This goes a long way to explaining the completely "new" concept of Satan in the New Testament, contrary to the Satan we find in the Old Testament. He underwent a transformation from being simply an agent of god within the heavenly court to a being with his own kingdom, his own army and his own plans totally independent of god. This was more in line with Persian religion than old Israelite theology which appears to show the Persian influence on modern Judaism reflected in the New Testament.
There is so much more that could be said and it is somewhat complex, however, this should suffice for now.
When I was a Christian I believed in the Bible from end to end. It never even entered into my mind to study the surrounding world that shaped its views because I firmly believed that it (the bible) was literally "god-breathed" by god, free of pagan influence and other corruption. Boy was I ever wrong!
The ancient Israelites were of the opinion that ALL things, good or bad, were attributed to god, but they believed that when 'bad' happened, it was for a designed purpose, one orchestrated by god. We see examples of this here and there. One example was the story of Saul where we read that god sent an evil spirit to torment him into madness because god rejected him (of course he had the symptoms of manic depression/bi-polar/schizophrenia but the biblical writer had no idea what any of these things were so he called Saul's affliction an "evil spirit' but I digress to work within his thinking). Satan is not included in this picture. God sends the evil upon Saul.
Another story is the story of king Ahab where we read that god consults with a 'lying spirit' to go and put lies in the mouths of Ahab's false prophets. Again, we read of no Satan. God is responsible for the dirty work in league with agents to carry out the deed.
Apparently this was not a problem to the early Israelites, but when they came in contact with the Persians and their complex, yet appealing, religious system, there appeared some marked additions in Jewish religion and one of them was this concept of an evil entity who rivaled a perfect god. The Israelites had no such concept.
Israelite theology posed a problem that Persian religion addressed. How? Well in Israelite theology, god was responsible for the child dying, the outbreak of disease, the pains, the sufferings, the pestilences and so on just as much as he was responsible for the bountiful harvest, the fertile woman, the good fortune. This is why Israelite religion was so big on laws. It was believed that good fortune was evidence of a righteous life by living up to the laws. For the Israelite, there was no afterlife so god's blessing or curse upon a life occurred in this world.
For the Persian, their god was all pure and completely removed from any and every evil. Evil was the sole domain of a rival god by the name of Angra Mainyu (Ahriman). This allowed some flexibility because it absolved their supreme god of any wrong doing while simultaneously being able to pin it on an evil entity. In addition, both of these forces were locked in an eternal struggle against each other played out in a spiritual world where spiritual forces of good and evil battled each other. The battleground was not only in spiritual "high places" but also in the hearts of men where man was constantly bombarded with "spiritual warfare" within his heart.
The Jews were under Jewish rule for over 200 years and unlike the other Gentile nations that ruled over them (Babylon, Greece and Rome), all of which the Jews fiercely rejected, they had a rather amicable relationship with the Persians and flourished. There is hardly a bad word said about the Persians in Jewish literature so it is quite likely the Jews were more open Persian religious influence including the concept of a rival spirit who was both enemy of god and men. This goes a long way to explaining the completely "new" concept of Satan in the New Testament, contrary to the Satan we find in the Old Testament. He underwent a transformation from being simply an agent of god within the heavenly court to a being with his own kingdom, his own army and his own plans totally independent of god. This was more in line with Persian religion than old Israelite theology which appears to show the Persian influence on modern Judaism reflected in the New Testament.
There is so much more that could be said and it is somewhat complex, however, this should suffice for now.
I tried really hard to disagree.. alas... I guess I can't.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]
This all takes place in the hearts of men, not an external high place up in the sky. "Casting down imaginations and every high thing which exalts itself against the knowledge of God".
The danger with all this elaborate mythology is that you end up with this:
Sherry Sfriner is another big proponent of the book of Enoch and of course you then get space alien demons (spirits of dead Nephilum or whatever they're supposed to be) flying in from the spirit world and wreaking havoc on the poor deceived mortals as they do their signs and wonders in the heavens.
It's all just a bunch of nonsense which takes away from our real mission to love and heal and transform humanity by the Spirit of God.
Again - very cool fun stories and the fodder for all manner of fantasy fiction, really intriguing. Been when you start believing it's all real - problems.
This sounds Frank Peretti - ish... I love his books but I wouldn't claim them as doctrine.
I think it is that reason that I have not addressed your other posts.
Well, I don't read his books, and I do read the OT and NT, Enoch, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the book of Jasher, Jubilees, and the apocrypha. I imagine that since CS Lewis read them and wrote his fiction stories using things that he read in those books, which one familiar with Lewis works and those books can identify, then I'm sure other fiction writers -as well as science fiction writers- who also read those works use the foundational doctrines of them to write lots of fiction.
At any rate, the list of books I gave are not fiction, and it is the Word of God which teaches that the Watchers are arch/chief angels who are judges/rulers over the sons of Adam [and Enoch shows that there are seven chiefs of them, and the chief of the chiefs is Michael], and that they rule from the heavenly realm of this earth, over this earth, for God, and some of them have fallen and are not cast out yet, but do not always obey the Word of God which is written in heaven for them to read and obey, as Enoch revealed.
That is why Gabriel and Michael fought the prince of Persia in the heavenlies over Persia, and "bound" him "at the border of the Euphrates, as one of the four kings of the east kept bound, there, at that border, from entering Israel [who will enter in the tribulation, with the hosts of their angelic forces and earthly rebel men and demons on earth, let out of hell at that time -but I digress], and that is why the ruler of Persia below, named Cyrus, then let Israel build the temple in Jerusalem and return to the land.
That is also why Jesus gives authority to His born again adopted sons who receive the "power to become sons of God by His Spirit", "to bind on earth ...and to bind in heaven [that realm of this earth where the rulers are set over earth to rule it]", those "forces of wickedness" working in the lives of men on earth.
There was war in the heavens of earth between "sars":
Quote:
NASB Daniel 10
10Then behold, a hand (R)touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11He said to me, "O (S)Daniel, man of high esteem, (T)understand the words that I am about to tell you and (U)stand upright, for I have now been sent to you " And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up (V)trembling.
12Then he said to me, "(W)Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on (X)humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response (Y)to your words. 13"But the prince/sar of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, (Z)Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
14"Now I have come to (AA)give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the (AB)latter days, for the vision pertains to (AC)the days yet future."
The original of this Daniel 10:21 literally states:..I will show [you] what is written/inscribed in the Scripture of Truth. One binds [with me in these] Michael, your sar/prince.
This is where biblical history and religion becomes fun to me and I'm glad you see where I am coming from.
Anyway, I made a mistake in my post. I meant to say the Jews were under Persian rule for over 200 years.
LOL I didn't notice... trying to sneak something in there eh?
I got the point tho...
I tend to agree that what people don't seem to realize is that the NT denounces all of the extra info the Jews picked up about God and Man from the different religions. I believe Jesus' mission was to show that what they thought was God (OT depiction) was wrong or rather .. askew.
I still don't get the correlation.... anyone care to explain how the existence of satan affects the existence of Christ?
Is it that satan and Jesus are "on the same level" so to speak?
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