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Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Sciomatics is repeating what Jesus said.
John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
In reference to the OP, do you pray that God will save all people?
Sciotamicks is speaking of Pauls words in the OP, not the words of Christ. I believe your interpretation of Christ words are in error ...
All the verses above is in reference to the Israelites ... They were killed or dispersed throughout the nations in AD 70 in direct fulfillment of Christs words in the verses you quoted above.
And the word condemned in the verses above is "krino", to be judged or seperated. I see you choose a translation which translates it as condemn. The works of all people will be judged, tried by the fire. Those whose works are burned up will be saved, as passing through the fire.
Iron,
You say that my interpretations of Christ word's are in error....and you're entitled to that opinion. Needless to say, we share the same opinion of each other.
The translation that I use (NIV) or (KJV). Mostly I will use the NIV here, except when conversing with LDS.
"All" in 1 Tim 2:4 is not to be understood as "all-inclusive".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
In reference to the OP, do you pray that God will save all people?
Actually, no I don't...not in the context in which you're meaning it. I do not pray that those who reject Jesus hold to some false security that isn't offered by God. God does not offer salvation, eternal life, Paradise or the kingdom of God for those who reject him...ever.
Instead, I pray that God's Word (through the Holy Spirit) changes the attitudes, hearts of those who reject God while present on earth. There is only but wrath and untolerable suffering for all those who die in unbelief.
Iron,
You say that my interpretations of Christ word's are in error....and you're entitled to that opinion. Needless to say, we share the same opinion of each other.
The translation that I use (NIV) or (KJV). Mostly I will use the NIV here, except when conversing with LDS.
"All" in 1 Tim 2:4 is not to be understood as "all-inclusive".
Actually, no I don't...not in the context in which you're meaning it. I do not pray that those who reject Jesus hold to some false security that isn't offered by God. God does not offer salvation, eternal life, Paradise or the kingdom of God for those who reject him...ever.
Instead, I pray that God's Word (through the Holy Spirit) changes the attitudes, hearts of those who reject God while present on earth. There is only but wrath and untolerable suffering for all those who die in unbelief.
I believe and hope and pray that you are wrong. I would not wish such a thing on Satan himself. I feel sorry for people who believe the way you do.
I remember when i believed that way, i had to harden my heart towards most people believing that most would end up in everlasting torture. I remember the hate and contempt i had in my heart for people who did not believe the way i did. I will never feel that way again. I now truly know what it is like to have the complete love of God for my neighbors and even my enemies. I trust God with them as i do with the love he has given me for them. If i believed anyone was being tortured so terribly right now, i would be tortured in my heart and soul. A person who truly loves another cannot bare the thought of their suffer, much less their complete torment.
Amen ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 03-15-2010 at 07:41 PM..
Iron,
You say that my interpretations of Christ word's are in error....and you're entitled to that opinion. Needless to say, we share the same opinion of each other.
The translation that I use (NIV) or (KJV). Mostly I will use the NIV here, except when conversing with LDS.
"All" in 1 Tim 2:4 is not to be understood as "all-inclusive".
Actually, no I don't...not in the context in which you're meaning it. I do not pray that those who reject Jesus hold to some false security that isn't offered by God. God does not offer salvation, eternal life, Paradise or the kingdom of God for those who reject him...ever.
Instead, I pray that God's Word (through the Holy Spirit) changes the attitudes, hearts of those who reject God while present on earth. There is only but wrath and untolerable suffering for all those who die in unbelief.
The Greek Lexicon I use says...
παντας adjective - accusative plural masculine
pas pas: apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole 1 Timothy 2:4 Bible Lexicon
I don't see how it cannot mean all.... can you explain a little more? I believe all can be used to indicate all of a group, which may not be inclusive as in all humans but I don't see that here...
The Greek Lexicon I use says...
παντας adjective - accusative plural masculine
pas pas: apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole 1 Timothy 2:4 Bible Lexicon
I don't see how it cannot mean all.... can you explain a little more? I believe all can be used to indicate all of a group, which may not be inclusive as in all humans but I don't see that here...
Because a dictionary isn't God's Word.
Taking other verses into account the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is not "all-inclusive," but is part of an "inclusive disjunction proposition".
It's just a prayer, and it is not the WILL of God.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4, KJV)
Taking other verses into account the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is not "all-inclusive," but is part of an "inclusive disjunction proposition".
A dictionary gives common usage... If we can make up our own definitions then nothing written can be trusted, including the written word of God. Words have meaning that aids in communication. If I said that ALL of my cars have gas in them to my husband yet he drove one and it was on empty.. do you think I could argue that "all" was an "inclusive disjunction proposition?"
What you are doing is saying that a dictionary can't be trusted (not even a bible concordance) but when you want to prove ET it is the dictionary or concordance that you use to solidify your argument.
You see.. inclusive disjunction proposition is a term in logic and is defined by dictionary.reference.com as the act of disjoining or the state of being disjoined: a disjunction between thought and action.
or in Logic it can mean:
a.Also called disjunctive, inclusive disjunction. a compound proposition that is true if and only if at least one of a number of alternatives is true.
b.Also called exclusive disjunction. a compound proposition that is true if and only if one and only one of a number of alternatives is true.
So what you are saying is that if there is any reason to assume that the alternatives are also true then "ALL" can only mean ALL if other uses of ALL are not limited to a certain or particular group.
Shall we see how many times "pas" means ALL in the sense of the whole of something?
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
Just looking at verses 1-8 we see 5 uses of ALL... please tell me how it is true that any of these "ALL" statements fall under the inclusive disjunction proposition?
First of all - means this urging come first before the rest of the urgings... so all is in fact all urgings.
All those in authority - includes all those in authority and is generic so that it is truly talking about all authority figures including the aforementioned kings.
All godliness and holiness - All means including all godliness and holiness.
All men to be saved - all men here is not referring to any group of men so we cannot say this is any different than the previous all's .. ALL men....
Ransom for all men - Again.. there is no situation in this chapter where all men is referring to a group of specific men.
Thus, logically you cannot say that this ALL falls under the inclusive disjunction proposition...
I find it interesting that you think a dictionary cannot be used because it is not the word of God, but you then introduce a term used in logic/grammar studies as an alternative explanation...
Taking other verses into account the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is not "all-inclusive," but is part of an "inclusive disjunction proposition".
Whatever you believe all means, it is exclusive of "those that believe" ... Two groups of people are being referred to in this verse, "all people" and "those that believe". The way that fundamentalists read it is, "god is NOT the savior of all people, ONLY of those that believe" ... But what it actually says is that "God IS the savior of all people, ESPECIALLY those that believe". Two completely different meanings, two completely different gospels.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 03-16-2010 at 11:19 AM..
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