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The usages given for the Greek are interesting, but mooot in the light of the understanding expressed by Nicodemus and answered by Jesus. Exegetical dithering aside, it is all about a sea change in understanding and purpose. How hard is that?
Sometimes it is good to look at what words are used and where they come from but I agree and I also don’t think it was about the individual being born again, it was about the Jew being a Pharisee and a ruler and the need to change to see the kingdom of God
Joh 3:1 But there was a man from the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This one came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You have come as a teacher from God. For no one is able to do these miraculous signs which You do, except God be with Him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be generated, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
We see the same thing in the conversion of Saul/Paul
The kingdom of God is not about individuals becoming Christians then going to heaven as spirits
The belief among evangelists is that newborn babies that die at birth go straight to Heaven. They are not Christians at all--yet they went to Heaven. So doesn't that mean that the Unsaved go to heaven too? After all babies are not innocent at all, because in Romans 3:23, it is stated that "ALL have sin."
The belief among evangelists is that newborn babies that die at birth go straight to Heaven. They are not Christians at all--yet they went to Heaven. So doesn't that mean that the Unsaved go to heaven too? After all babies are not innocent at all, because in Romans 3:23, it is stated that "ALL have sin."
I think a major problem is taking things out of context, once you mix the prophetic, allegoric, metaphoric and National things of the scriptures and think they are historic, literal and individual you adulterate or corrupt the Scriptures
The words in the scriptures are not about literal, physical things they are about spiritual things given in signs, metaphors, parables by prophets, apostles and disciples by revelation
Sometimes it is good to look at what words are used and where they come from but I agree and I also don’t think it was about the individual being born again, it was about the Jew being a Pharisee and a ruler and the need to change to see the kingdom of God
Joh 3:1 But there was a man from the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This one came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You have come as a teacher from God. For no one is able to do these miraculous signs which You do, except God be with Him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be generated, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
We see the same thing in the conversion of Saul/Paul
The kingdom of God is not about individuals becoming Christians then going to heaven as spirits
That is not THE MESSAGE/THE GOSPEL
Salvation is NOT about individuals because it applies to our entire human species, Meerkat. But each individual DOES need to be "born again" AS A SPIRIT upon physical death. We are "conceived" (spiritually inseminated) by God when we love and our physical existence is our "spiritual pregnancy."
1 John 4:7 (King James Version)
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Salvation is NOT about individuals because it applies to our entire human species, Meerkat. But each individual DOES need to be "born again" AS A SPIRIT upon physical death. We are "conceived" (spiritually inseminated) by God when we love and our physical existence is our "spiritual pregnancy."
1 John 4:7 (King James Version)
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
We have different perceptions about what the scriptures mean mystic, I believe in re-incarnation so I don’t believe our human experience is a lifetime of being a spiritual embryo that will just live in the spirit world after physically dying
We have different perceptions about what the scriptures mean mystic, I believe in re-incarnation so I don’t believe our human experience is a lifetime of being a spiritual embryo that will just live in the spirit world after physically dying
That just makes no sense to me
I understand, but reincarnation makes no sense to me. What good does it do to have another physical life to somehow get better in complete ignorance of what you did wrong before? God IS Spirit and we reproduce God's Spirit by producing Love. Only consciousness can produce the phenomena that comprise love, charity, compassion, mercy.
I understand, but reincarnation makes no sense to me. What good does it do to have another physical life to somehow get better in complete ignorance of what you did wrong before? God IS Spirit and we reproduce God's Spirit by producing Love. Only consciousness can produce the phenomena that comprise love, charity, compassion, mercy.
Mystic, your posts have been so influential to me, but reincarnation is something I'm kind of accepting of at this minute , the full purpose of it, I’m yet to understand.
Mystic, your posts have been so influential to me, but reincarnation is something I'm kind of accepting of at this minute , the full purpose of it, I’m yet to understand.
I might get into reincarnation if I thought I could live a good enough life to come back as a sea otter.
I understand, but reincarnation makes no sense to me. What good does it do to have another physical life to somehow get better in complete ignorance of what you did wrong before? God IS Spirit and we reproduce God's Spirit by producing Love. Only consciousness can produce the phenomena that comprise love, charity, compassion, mercy.
How I think of it is that The experiences we have in our lifetime shape us, that shaping that happens is the result and is what is important, not the individual experience itself - we do not remember past lives because the mundane events are not important it is the character that is shaped, and that shaping is done here, on earth.... not in a spiritual purgatory
It makes no sense to me that a person is born and maybe dies when they are 3 or 5 or 12 ... and others live to 80, 90 and they then become a ‘spirit’? There is no equality in the Christian perspective of live once then spiritual “heaven”
Mystic, your posts have been so influential to me, but reincarnation is something I'm kind of accepting of at this minute, the full purpose of it, I’m yet to understand.
I am pleased if my views had a positive impact on you, pcamps. But it is not necessary to accept or agree with all of my views. I am sympathetic to the idea that this one physical existence hardly seems to be enough to perfect our Spirit but it is NOT supposed to. We are only supposed to achieve enough spiritual maturity in this life to be "born again" as an "infant" Spirit embarking on an entirely NEW Spirit life. We did not achieve full physical and mental maturity in our physical womb. Why would we expect to achieve full spiritual maturity in this spiritual "womb?"
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