Belief and desire for eternal torment is born out of a spirit of vengeance (paradise, church)
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Thw spirit if vengeance in mainstream christianity has never understood one of two things "how much they were forgiven themselves or forgiveness as a whole".
That is the point and the fallacy of ones choice. God does no torment anyone, they torment themselves. God merely leaves them alone in their torment of thier own making, but they do have a way out if they make a choice for Christ.
That is the point and the fallacy of ones choice. God does no torment anyone, they torment themselves. God merely leaves them alone in their torment of thier own making, but they do have a way out if they make a choice for Christ.
Then you are saying God allows people to stay in torment forever. Am I understanding you correctly? And you must agree that God knew this would be even before He created the universe. In essence, God created a system where He knew the very people He created would be tormented forever.
Do you believe God loves these people that are tormenting themselves forever?
If you say YES, then is God's love restricted by Him "respecting" their "free will" choice?
Do you understand that if you love someone, you would not let them put themselves through torment forever? Part of love is "not delighting in evil" and "always protecting" (See 1 Cor 13).
So in effect, if you believe God leaves a person alone to suffer forever because of their choice, you are also saying that God's love has failed that person. So either God's love fails (which cannot be - Love never fails), or God simply doesn't love everyone.
Another thing to consider: you say above "they do have a way out if they make a choice for Christ". But everyone will make a choice for Christ when they bow to Him and swear allegiance to Him. Now you are in another quandary. If you say its too late, God won't accept it anymore, now you must admit that it is God who is responsible for tormenting people forever (not themselves as you say above), becauese God has revoked the "offer for salvation". On the other hand if you say not everyone will choose Christ, then you are contradicting the scriptures that say everyone will bow, confess His name, swear allegiance to Him, and even joyfully praise Him.
On the other hand if you say not everyone will choose Christ, then you are contradicting the scriptures that say everyone will bow, confess His name, swear allegiance to Him, and even joyfully praise Him.
That is the point and the fallacy of ones choice. God does no torment anyone, they torment themselves. God merely leaves them alone in their torment of thier own making, but they do have a way out if they make a choice for Christ.
My point is ET is a product of the mind that does not know or understand the forgiveness of God and how much they have been forgiven by Him . so if you in your mind are making it by the skin of your teeth to were ever your doctrine has you going to(yes i know you fundy's say it's by faith, your confession speaks otherwise) , how can the unbeliever ever make it.
I know I've been over this before with you, and you refused to acknowledge it then.
From the NASB:
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
I know I've been over this before with you, and you refused to acknowledge it then.
From the NASB:
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
My point is ET is a product of the mind that does not know or understand the forgiveness of God and how much they have been forgiven by Him . so if you in your mind are making it by the skin of your teeth to were ever your doctrine has you going to(yes i know you fundy's say it's by faith, your confession speaks otherwise) , how can the unbeliever ever make it.
I think you plagerized this verse:
1 Pet. 4:18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
I know I've been over this before with you, and you refused to acknowledge it then.
From the NASB:
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
It's funny, the last part of Isaiah does speak of a certain class being not redeemed, although it seems to suggest the majority will be redeemed. The Targum on Isaiah 66:24 says, 'their souls will not die, nor their fire be quenched; they will be judged in hell, until the righteous say concerning them; we have seen enough.' Whether you want to interpret the last part as the righteous merely turning their eyes away, the wicked being annihilated, or God finally redeeming them after a period of suffering is up to you. Keep in mind it's someone's interpretation, but it reflects common beliefs about the eventual punishment of the wicked.
That is the point and the fallacy of ones choice. God does no torment anyone, they torment themselves. God merely leaves them alone in their torment of thier own making, but they do have a way out if they make a choice for Christ.
That's the new kinder gentler version of the hell myth. The contradiction is that Jesus says "depart from me" (which leads to the kinder, gentler version) but in Rev. the fire and brimstone is "In the PRESENCE of the lamb".
Can't have it both ways. The solution to the dilemma is that neither scenario is talking about eternal hell at all....
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