Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,076,059 times
Reputation: 11862
Advertisements
I'm talking about the origin of this belief. Almost every evidence I see where it is clearly taught - whether in the Jewish Intertestamental literature or later in the writings of the Church father, it is in a spirit of revenge.
In Judith 16:17 it is against the oppressive nations who also rise up against the Lord.
In Maccabees it is against the tyrant Antioch.
In the Martyrdom of Polycarp against those who seek to burn him in the fire. He contrasts it with an eternal fire that is unquenchable, in contrast to the fire which only 'burns for a season.'
Examples of this are commonly seen in the writings of the martyrs.
Later Church fathers are even more graphic in describing the pains and sufferings of hell - from Tertullian to Augustine to Jonathon Edwards to some modern day fundamentalists. Whether Christians admit it or not, it was a common belief among the old Church fathers that the sufferings of the damned would bring happiness to the redeemed. Many respected figures in the history of Christianity have nigh on delighted in this. Is this the example we are to follow?
How did Jesus react to those who sought to harm him? Yes, he did condemn Judas and some of the worst sinners, but on the cross he asked his Father to forgive them for they knew not what they were doing. Did he ask God to cause tenfold the suffering that he suffered, like Polycarp and the like?
Now the Martyrs were brave men who no doubt were zealous for their faith, and what their oppressors did was inexcusable, but they clearly delighted in revenge and retribution. Which is my problem with the whole idea of revenge, retribution and recompense. We can get so blinded by a human desire for revenge we get blinded to all sense of proportion; you merely even look at my woman the wrong way, I'm bash you to within an inch of your life! If you steal a loaf of bread you should be hanged. To me, that's the kind of maniacal thirst for justice behind most of the evidence for eternal torment I see. I see it as a confusion with justice with the complete opposite of justice.
I'm talking about the origin of this belief. Almost every evidence I see where it is clearly taught - whether in the Jewish Intertestamental literature or later in the writings of the Church father, it is in a spirit of revenge.
In Judith 16:17 it is against the oppressive nations who also rise up against the Lord.
In Maccabees it is against the tyrant Antioch.
In the Martyrdom of Polycarp against those who seek to burn him in the fire. He contrasts it with an eternal fire that is unquenchable, in contrast to the fire which only 'burns for a season.'
Examples of this are commonly seen in the writings of the martyrs.
Later Church fathers are even more graphic in describing the pains and sufferings of hell - from Tertullian to Augustine to Jonathon Edwards to some modern day fundamentalists. Whether Christians admit it or not, it was a common belief among the old Church fathers that the sufferings of the damned would bring happiness to the redeemed. Many respected figures in the history of Christianity have nigh on delighted in this. Is this the example we are to follow?
How did Jesus react to those who sought to harm him? Yes, he did condemn Judas and some of the worst sinners, but on the cross he asked his Father to forgive them for they knew not what they were doing. Did he ask God to cause tenfold the suffering that he suffered, like Polycarp and the like?
Now the Martyrs were brave men who no doubt were zealous for their faith, and what their oppressors did was inexcusable, but they clearly delighted in revenge and retribution. Which is my problem with the whole idea of revenge, retribution and recompense. We can get so blinded by a human desire for revenge we get blinded to all sense of proportion; you merely even look at my woman the wrong way, I'm bash you to within an inch of your life! If you steal a loaf of bread you should be hanged. To me, that's the kind of maniacal thirst for justice behind most of the evidence for eternal torment I see. I see it as a confusion with justice with the complete opposite of justice.
I see it too... Christ surely would not have approved.
Maybe or maybe not. Anyone who rejects God and never repents should they be blessed with eternity with God or should they be cursed with eternal seperation. Torment could be something as simple as a tiny spliter in ones finger of something as drastic as being torn limb from limb and eternal torment could being anything one could imagine on steroids.
How did Jesus react to those who sought to harm him? Yes, he did condemn Judas and some of the worst sinners, but on the cross he asked his Father to forgive them for they knew not what they were doing. Did he ask God to cause tenfold the suffering that he suffered, like Polycarp and the like?
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,076,059 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69
Maybe or maybe not. Anyone who rejects God and never repents should they be blessed with eternity with God or should they be cursed with eternal seperation. Torment could be something as simple as a tiny spliter in ones finger of something as drastic as being torn limb from limb and eternal torment could being anything one could imagine on steroids.
It's funny, though, in most of these early examples, the reason given for the threat of eternal torment is extreme wickedness, often of a personal nature. It's only later that the warning is more general. Paul the Apostle could have warned of eternal conscious suffering in hell - if it was true, why not use the strongest deterrent he could? Instead the worst he threatened was eternal destruction (I do know many interpret this to mean eternal punishment in hell).
In modern day Christianity 'eternal separation' makes it sound not so bad. But not so for the early church fathers. The focus was most definitely on carnal, physical suffering; talk of fire burning flesh, worms erupting out of flesh, eyeballs boiling; this was the language of punishment. Can you imagine Jesus delivering one of Jonathon Edward's sermons? Delighting in the agony of the damned?
Maybe or maybe not. Anyone who rejects God and never repents should they be blessed with eternity with God or should they be cursed with eternal seperation. Torment could be something as simple as a tiny spliter in ones finger of something as drastic as being torn limb from limb and eternal torment could being anything one could imagine on steroids.
What comes out of the mouth shows the state of the heart.. When one talks of great pain and suffering for someone that is the spirit of their heart.
Luke 6:45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
I think Trimac has a point here. If you think justice means someone is tortured... then torture is overflowing in your heart.
Thw spirit if vengeance in mainstream christianity has never understood one of two things "how much they were forgiven themselves or forgiveness as a whole".
I'm talking about the origin of this belief. Almost every evidence I see where it is clearly taught - whether in the Jewish Intertestamental literature or later in the writings of the Church father, it is in a spirit of revenge.
In Judith 16:17 it is against the oppressive nations who also rise up against the Lord.
In Maccabees it is against the tyrant Antioch.
In the Martyrdom of Polycarp against those who seek to burn him in the fire. He contrasts it with an eternal fire that is unquenchable, in contrast to the fire which only 'burns for a season.'
Examples of this are commonly seen in the writings of the martyrs.
Later Church fathers are even more graphic in describing the pains and sufferings of hell - from Tertullian to Augustine to Jonathon Edwards to some modern day fundamentalists. Whether Christians admit it or not, it was a common belief among the old Church fathers that the sufferings of the damned would bring happiness to the redeemed. Many respected figures in the history of Christianity have nigh on delighted in this. Is this the example we are to follow?
How did Jesus react to those who sought to harm him? Yes, he did condemn Judas and some of the worst sinners, but on the cross he asked his Father to forgive them for they knew not what they were doing. Did he ask God to cause tenfold the suffering that he suffered, like Polycarp and the like?
Now the Martyrs were brave men who no doubt were zealous for their faith, and what their oppressors did was inexcusable, but they clearly delighted in revenge and retribution. Which is my problem with the whole idea of revenge, retribution and recompense. We can get so blinded by a human desire for revenge we get blinded to all sense of proportion; you merely even look at my woman the wrong way, I'm bash you to within an inch of your life! If you steal a loaf of bread you should be hanged. To me, that's the kind of maniacal thirst for justice behind most of the evidence for eternal torment I see. I see it as a confusion with justice with the complete opposite of justice.
Christ was talking of the ones present at His crucifixion that were mocking Him...it is said about Judas "woe unto that man"...Also, God says "vengence is mine"..."i will repay"...
Maybe or maybe not. Anyone who rejects God and never repents should they be blessed with eternity with God or should they be cursed with eternal seperation. Torment could be something as simple as a tiny spliter in ones finger of something as drastic as being torn limb from limb and eternal torment could being anything one could imagine on steroids.
There's the imagination thing again. I think that's where the ET sentiment comes from, vain imaginations, dark thoughts.
Thw spirit if vengeance in mainstream christianity has never understood one of two things "how much they were forgiven themselves or forgiveness as a whole".
says who ?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
