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Make no mistake about it. How many actually came INTO this doctrine of their own accord, through the Spirit of Truth, rather than the teaching of man.
I hadn't read a single book or website prior to coming to believe in reconcilation of all. I was presented exactly one verse by someone who believed in UR ("as in Adam all die... even so in Christ will all be made alive") and that verse did not sway me in the least. I came back with the typical "All who are in Christ will be made alive". Prior to that day, I'd never heard of UR.
Anyway, I thought this guy was nuts & ridiculus for believing that all will be saved AND claiming to believe the scriptures are the word of God. I could conceive of a "new ager" believing all will be saved, but not someone who supposedly believes the scriptures are inerrant.
So after briefly discussing that one verse, I set out to gather all the scriptures I could find relating to God's fire, wrath, vengance, judgments etc so I could show this guy how wrong he was. It was during that process of gathering of scriptures from the OT and NT that my view was overturned (all of about 5 hours, though my doubts lingered for much longer)
Whether that was the Spirit of God leading me, how can I say for sure. But I was not convinced by being taught by any man.
ET/ED were not the only doctrines that were overturned for me at that time. Other doctrines were too, and those were not taught to me either. One doctrine I came to believe in is commonly called "replacement theology" although for what I believe that is a misnomer, since the church does not "replace" anyone in inheriting the promises. Rather the promises always were to spiritual seed of Abraham, not the physical seed of Abraham. When I came to see that, I actually had to search for weeks before I finally found that others had seen this too.
One of the things I wanted to express for a while is what you wrote . . . to claim a doctrine as the end all, means you are done learning . . . . so true . . . we must never stop letting the spirit of God teach us on all matters. Thank you for this post and your sincerity.
aionion judgment (whatever it entails) is the milk of the word. Read without chapter break...
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Make no mistake - if you ever truely understood Universal Salvation as delivered to us by Jesus Christ then you would never embrace another doctrine and denounce universal salvation. So that leaves us with a few possibilities for those that make such claims:
1.) They only THOUGHT they knew Universal Salvation as delivered by Christ.
2.) They are perpetuating a lie.
3.) ...?
Here's the thing Trettep, some of us have truly studied God's word, and the message delivered to us by Jesus Christ . . . . and that is precisely why the "doctrine" of Universal Salvation is not biblical . . . because it is the teaching of men, not Jesus Christ . . . .period.
I actually came INTO the belief during my studies. I hadn't then realized it was a widely held belief among so many. It wasn't until I pushed it on another forums, that I realized there were so many that held the same belief. It was through them that they gave me links to tentmaker, eby and others.
About 4 years.
No, it was.
No, I do not believe so. I actually believed in it with everything that I am.
No problem. I do not mind sharing at all. One thing about this belief though, concerning believing in it. I do miss the heated debates with the fundies. And it is not that I whole heartedly dismiss this idea that UR is true. It is just that there are TOOOO many blaspheming the Lord, the Spirit, and the Father FOR IT TO BE TRUE. If you know what I mean. Mainly from the folks who call themselves Christian. Jesus had the worst to say to the religous leaders of the day. I am sure He would say the same about our day as well.
People that believe in UR are some of the most loving people I know. It is the fact that they cannot even fathom that God, as Judge, could exclude anyone, that they fill up their measure completely with His Love, and yet, are lacking in His Justice. For that, it is ok by me. And really it should be with everyone. I pray your doctrine is true. I pray the ET doctrine is false. I pray mine is the least painful for the lost, if they cannot enter into His Glory.
But we live today. And what we say and do in His Holy Name is what counts, today. How we love, is how we live. We cannot, as Christians, hold back the Light any longer. It is coming to pass, to ultimately make a stand. There are many, many lukewarm Christians today. They worship and serve other God's, without repentance. They covet, without repentance. They have a hand in killing, stealing, and destroying, without repentance, and without a voice crying out to God for deliverance. We need revival, in the worst of ways.
So it boils down to this.
I came to my conclusion because the Spirit led me here. But, if it is to serve a higher purpose, unbeknown to me, then so be it. I am His.
But I try not to knock people for their beliefs, as long as it doesn't start sounding like brainwashing. Does this make sense? If the focus is so hell bent on trying to prove each other's POV right, then there is little time for the big picture, because we ALL know, there is nothing nobody can say FOR CERTAIN regarding the Judgments of God, because they haven't been there. Sometimes I see UR in this light. Everything they say is almost to that point. I understand it, of course. But at some time, you and others must let it go and start on other meat of the Word. Otherwise we all become stagnant in our growth as Christians.
Be blessed Brother,
HotinAz
your post somehow touched me, you appear to be a good person no matter to what doctrine you adhere.
these Christians are very sincere and also universalists, but they also teach about God's judgment and are everythink else than liberals, maybe you'd like to look at their page:
As I have stated, when I was agnostic, I didn't really know if God existed or not, if Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and in fact, didn't worry too much one way or the other.
I had a disdain for God if he were true, because I used to ponder why he would create us in the flesh, with all our fleshly desires . . . and then toruture us, or raise us up to send us off the the Lake of Fire.
I wanted God to be like me, have my thoughts and views . . .at times I though God was an egomaniac sadistical tyrant . . .
In study the Word, and really dwelling on the teachings of Jesus Christ, there is ONE very important thing to keep in your mind and heart . .
There can only be one central idea of the Christian scheme, and that is, as it exists in the mind of God alone.
One theme, One Plan, One Mind . . not our's or our pastors, etc, but only God's plan . . . once I accepted this, I was set free to study with a different unlittered mind.
Now, take these verses you posted and back up a few. Here they are:
8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
See it?
8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you(????????? see the question here ???????????,
THEN AND ONLY THEN)= He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
This IS immortality. Mortal to immortal.
Can you see this? If the Spirit of God dwells IN you, then you are marked, and set aside. Through His Spirit, you are made immortal. The SAME Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.
So, does everyone have this same Spirit? Yes, or no please.
HotinAZ... I'm not sure if you understood what I am saying. I will address your post later on, but how does what you said relate to my post? This is a different topic from what I've posted.
Frankly, brother... I have to say, when you say that you believed in UR for several years, what did it do to your heart? What was the fruit of this belief in your heart? Because unless you have had fear or anger (yes even anger over the darkness in this world is STILL something that can affect you in the WRONG way if you are not seeing through the right set of eyes)or something similar like carnal pride or something, come and and slip into your heart unawares and take root... there is no way that you could turn back and stop believing what our Creator has done or stop believing in the full majesty of His character. I am going to be very blunt in saying this. Because there is a POWER that takes root in your heart. HIS LOVE. This power of HIS LOVE overwhelms you and you SEE far, far, far more than you ever imagined. Now, someone who has been THROUGH this... and had God expand His heart in this extraordinary way... just couldn't go back.
You keep talking of justice. As if His justice is something APART from His love. This is a huge clue to me that even though you say or think you believed in UR for a few years, brother, I'm telling you right now with FULL FAITH that what I am saying is dead on, your eyes were never fully opened to it. You may have believed, but you did not have faith in what you believed. And that makes all the difference in the world.
I still absolutely respect your beliefs. Everyone is on their own path.
Oh and by the way... I never heard of "UR" and never even knew there was such a thing before I believed. It was just ME and the KVJ bible and praying to God and Him taking me through all kinds of fire. Back then, I wasn't even on the internet at the time. Until I had come to a FULL TRUST AND FAITH in that Jesus Christ IS the saviour of all. My journey was quite interesting. He had me suffering over the fate of every single soul. He took me through loving people who caused the death of my mother. He had me loving my enemies. He had me peering at others through HIS eyes. So, no absolutely no DOCTRINE of mankind here. I was not INDOCTRINATED with mankind's beliefs to begin with, so for me, the truth had a much clearer path to my heart and to my soul.
Again, my one example of something slipping in: "anger".... anger at the darkness, anger at the INjustices in this world, is understandable, but if you have something off kilter in your perspective of it, then it CAN turn off the light of a certain truth in your heart, mind and soul.
The true character of God, when it comes into FULL VIEW.... is absolutely mind blowing and LIFE CHANGING.
For me to stop believing would be like me using a tiny little flashlight in a dark room, suddenly having the SUN burst into my room... and being filled with this magnificence, and then later on... shutting it out and going back to using my tiny little flashlight. This is why I suspect brother... that the true character of God just hasn't YET come into FULL VIEW. Maybe you caught glimpses, yes...! But brother. I am telling you this with every inch of my being... there is just no WAY you could go back to using the flashlight.
Unless, like I said... something slipped in unawares, fear, anger or maybe something else altogether. But even then... I think it would be very difficult for those things to even take root once The SON has fully shined into your heart and soul in TRUE GLORIOUS MAGNIFICENCE.
Peace brother,
sparrow
Last edited by .sparrow.; 04-03-2010 at 11:19 AM..
The OT was really NOT all about your 'actions' through the Law. See, that is what the Israelites were missing. They were so heel bent on serving the Law, they forgot the Faith in Love that the Law was supposed to serve. There are many people who were saved in the OT. But, again, they served God out of Love thereby fullfilling the spirit of the Law.
Exactly... so what new and better promises came in the NT... what different things did Jesus come to share if it is all the same?
Quote:
The OC and the NC both agree that no one can achieve salvation by works. It was then, and always will be, Faith in Love. Towards God, and each other. You say death is conquered for everyone, and I agree. But, not all will accept this free gift. And you need to accept it now, in this life, in this age, upon hearing the Gospel. Jesus said the 'End" would come when the Gospel would be preached unto the ends of the earth. Now, many would think this earth is our planet. I disagree, since the cryptic Words were revealed to me. The Gospel will be preached to EVERY SOUL who has ever lived, and will live. Notice who Jesus went to preach to upon His death. Hades! Thereby fullfilling that 'part' of earth. The Gospel will be preached to all. But, even after the preaching is done, there is still the matter of acceptance. And I mean the acceptance of the heart and soul. Not just lip service.
How can you accept something in your heart and soul unless you know it is true? I believe it is the guess work within ET/AN that keeps people in bondage. If you know you are forgiven then you can count on that... it is like positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement.
I have a problem with the acceptance of the free gift theory.
I liken it to Jesus paying a debt that was owed. Any subsequent debt is paid also therefore WHEN he paid the price.. that price included all future and past transactions. Sorta like getting free oil changes for life... Jesus paid them upfront... you can claim your prize now or later but the same debt owed is the same debt paid. There is no more sacrifice for sin therefore all sin must fall under that one sacrifice... thus paid.
So if sin was paid already.. why do you suppose you need to accept the payment? You were not paid. God was paid. God accepted the payment on your behalf.. my behalf.. etc.
If I paid your electric bill, you wouldn't have to accept it but the electric company would. You can pretend it wasn't paid but to the electric company it is paid..
If your debt is paid (as is all mankind's) then what is there to reap after this life?
Quote:
Jesus also says to chop off your hands and pluck your eyes out to keep from sinning. Turning the other cheek is a show of force, not weakness. It shows the person who struck you, that they have no authority over you. You will not back down. You will not submit. You will not run. You will not fight. But, you will STAND on His Ground. It is a stripping away of authority of one over you. Forgiving your brother seventy times seven proves that there is no end to forgiveness. We must forgive, and be forgiven for sin, all the days of our lives. IOW, there is no point in which you can say,,I have forgiven enough.
I believe "turn the other cheek" came from the Jewish idiom for if someone insults you you shouldn't insult them back. It has more to do with perpetuating a wrong action and letting it go.
Here is an excerpt from Christianity and Pacifism Note the specification of right cheek. Why would He need to make such a specification? In fact, it doesn't really make much sense, because if someone were to hit you on your right cheek, it means they either hit you from behind or they caught you with a left hook. Most people, however, are right-handed, and have not had boxing lessons. Therefore, in the majority of cases, you are going to get slapped on your left cheek. Indeed, this was apparently the chosen method of insult among Roman soldiers of the time.
Paul Cohan goes into further detail:
...a hit on the right cheek is a back-handed slap, which even today in the Middle East expresses a gross insult. This idea of a slap as an insult is seen in Lamentations 3:30: “Let him give his cheek to the smiter and be filled with insults.” This slap would be roughly equivalent to spitting in someone's face in our society.
Jesus is not saying, “Don’t defend yourself when you are attacked” or “Don’t help a woman who is being raped” or “Don’t defend your country when it is being attacked.” He is not negating the judicial principle of an “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”; he speaks against the abuse of that judicial principle to justify personal retaliation or vengeance."
So the problem I see is if you are not supposed to return what is done to you in retaliation or vengeance, why would God return evil for evil, rather than good for evil?
The one way to show people they are being "evil" is by being Good...
Here is why I don't believe in annihilation...
Neh. 9:31 But in your great mercy, you did not destroy them completely or abandon them forever. What a gracious and merciful God you are!
Isaiah 48:11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another. Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.
Psalm 25:11 For Your name's sake, O LORD, Pardon my iniquity, for it is great.
Psalm 106:8 Nevertheless He saved them for the sake of His name, That He might make His power known.
Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
Exodus 9:16 "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.
Well those are a few anyway...It is for God's own sake that he forgives transgressions against him just like turning the other cheek... it shows not weakness but power and justice. It shows God's power and might if he can save the worst sinner. IMO
Quote:
Yes they are.
Sappy people do sappy things...like love people, I would say God is the ultimate sappy person.. I certainly can't compare.
Here's the thing Trettep, some of us have truly studied God's word, and the message delivered to us by Jesus Christ . . . . and that is precisely why the "doctrine" of Universal Salvation is not biblical . . . because it is the teaching of men, not Jesus Christ . . . .period.
That is your opinion lifesign64, to which you are entitled ... It was not the opinion of the vast majority of native Koine Greek speaking Christians throughout the first 4 centuries CE.
Most Greek speaking Christians believed and taught Universal Reconciliation in the earliest years of the church ... That is a fact.
That is your opinion lifesign64, to which you are entitled ... It was not the opinion of the vast majority of native Koine Greek speaking Christians throughout the first 4 centuries CE.
Most Greek speaking Christians believed and taught Universal Reconciliation in the earliest years of the church ... That is a fact.
I don't know if the intention of the OP was to have the reasons one would leave UR refuted by those still believing UR...but it looks like the sappy URers are persistent (myself included), and I just wanted to say that it is not because of the need to be right. In our position it is a moot point as being right or wrong has no bearing if all are saved. Since URers are so very sappy (love love love) we feel the need to share that love and want others to feel our love.
I am sure most of you noticed the loving atmosphere in this thread and frankly noting the 5 pages and yet not one accusatory or unloving post... should tell us something is right and Christ-like about the URer or ANer in the way they debate a subject... doesn't it?
So I think this thread has proven that ET is definitely the most un-christlike or even anti-christ out of the three. at least IMO.
There is more love shown in this thread while in the midst of disagreement than I have seen in a thread in a long time.
Kudos to all of us sappy and deviant thinkers.
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I certainly can't compare.
