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One theme, One Plan, One Mind . . not our's or our pastors, etc, but only God's plan . . . once I accepted this, I was set free to study with a different unlittered mind.
Lifesigns,,
What I have realised is it is easy to recongnise that we are human and have littered minds, but it is very hard to dislodge that litter .........
HotinAZ: If you have read L. Ray Smith and his explanations of everlasting, forever, etc., what was it specifically that you disagreed with?
Anybody else read his work and disagree on the Eternal bit?
I honestly do not remember.
But, having said that, I did NOT set out reading him, to refute him. The Word and the Spirit did that.
But, also having said that.
Would you be shocked to know this about me.
I still believe in a partial reconciliation. Just not universal. And this is the primary reason. If the powers that be, on this earth, in our worlds, KNOW the Truth, which I firmly believe they do, and Christ Himself testified about these powers, and the blasphemy that accompanies them, then there is no way for a Just God to excuse them. His Word says He won't. Jesus says He won't. And I believe He won't. Period. There are no if, ands, or buts about it. No second chance FOR these people. These people USED God's Holy Name for benefit and power on this earth. No different than the devil would. No different than a beast would. No different than a false prophet would. They all have a fate awaiting them.
The reason I believe it is partial makes me a heretic. But it is ok. I accept that. But there are millions who DO NOT KNOW God, nor His Holy Son. They do not know there is a Higher Authority that desires us fully. So, how could someone who doesn't know, be held accountable? They cannot.
I refer back to those who DO. They know. They have had the gift of the Spirit. They have had forgiveness. They have come to the cross. And Jesus says He will spit these people out like the phlem they are. And if Jesus cannot stand to be in their presence? What makes anyone think the Father will? It is only through Jesus we come to the Father.
So, Uh oh. Houston, we have an issue then. There is no burning out the wickedness. There is no torture for a period of time, and then a release. There is nothing but death awaiting them, AFTER they are judged. And it isn't even a matter of knowing what they did, as they already NOW know what they are doing that is wrong and even worthy of death.
HotinAZ... I'm not sure if you understood what I am saying. I will address your post later on, but how does what you said relate to my post? This is a different topic from what I've posted.
Frankly, brother... I have to say, when you say that you believed in UR for several years, what did it do to your heart? What was the fruit of this belief in your heart? Because unless you have had fear or anger (yes even anger over the darkness in this world is STILL something that can affect you in the WRONG way if you are not seeing through the right set of eyes)or something similar like carnal pride or something, come and and slip into your heart unawares and take root... there is no way that you could turn back and stop believing what our Creator has done or stop believing in the full majesty of His character. I am going to be very blunt in saying this. Because there is a POWER that takes root in your heart. HIS LOVE. This power of HIS LOVE overwhelms you and you SEE far, far, far more than you ever imagined. Now, someone who has been THROUGH this... and had God expand His heart in this extraordinary way... just couldn't go back.
You keep talking of justice. As if His justice is something APART from His love. This is a huge clue to me that even though you say or think you believed in UR for a few years, brother, I'm telling you right now with FULL FAITH that what I am saying is dead on, your eyes were never fully opened to it. You may have believed, but you did not have faith in what you believed. And that makes all the difference in the world.
I still absolutely respect your beliefs. Everyone is on their own path.
Oh and by the way... I never heard of "UR" and never even knew there was such a thing before I believed. It was just ME and the KVJ bible and praying to God and Him taking me through all kinds of fire. Back then, I wasn't even on the internet at the time. Until I had come to a FULL TRUST AND FAITH in that Jesus Christ IS the saviour of all. My journey was quite interesting. He had me suffering over the fate of every single soul. He took me through loving people who caused the death of my mother. He had me loving my enemies. He had me peering at others through HIS eyes. So, no absolutely no DOCTRINE of mankind here. I was not INDOCTRINATED with mankind's beliefs to begin with, so for me, the truth had a much clearer path to my heart and to my soul.
Again, my one example of something slipping in: "anger".... anger at the darkness, anger at the INjustices in this world, is understandable, but if you have something off kilter in your perspective of it, then it CAN turn off the light of a certain truth in your heart, mind and soul.
The true character of God, when it comes into FULL VIEW.... is absolutely mind blowing and LIFE CHANGING.
For me to stop believing would be like me using a tiny little flashlight in a dark room, suddenly having the SUN burst into my room... and being filled with this magnificence, and then later on... shutting it out and going back to using my tiny little flashlight. This is why I suspect brother... that the true character of God just hasn't YET come into FULL VIEW. Maybe you caught glimpses, yes...! But brother. I am telling you this with every inch of my being... there is just no WAY you could go back to using the flashlight.
Unless, like I said... something slipped in unawares, fear, anger or maybe something else altogether. But even then... I think it would be very difficult for those things to even take root once The SON has fully shined into your heart and soul in TRUE GLORIOUS MAGNIFICENCE.
Peace brother,
sparrow
Even though you sound sincere in your posts, I can see it is still verging on an argument. I know. Been there done that. I was asked to explain my position, which I was more than happy to do.
I don't question anyone elses heart, nor understanding. Each are on their own individual paths. So, why question mine? My understanding has bloomed to more than a question of the after ever. It has to do with God's government on earth, and what men have done to disrupt and try to destroy it.
So, nothing slipped. The Love is there, more and more each day. The Truth is being laid more and more fully. The things that keep me from entering into His Glory are made more manifest daily. But this is a journey only I can make, just as yours is yours to make.
If you are there, cool. Show me. Not in words, but in Power. It is the right of those who question, to ask not what words they know(as even devils know them also), but how much the Power of God has indwelt IN them, and it is the Father's good pleasure to show us. In fact, I would say He enjoys it.
So, back to this point you made a second ago:
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You keep talking of justice. As if His justice is something APART from His love. This is a huge clue to me that even though you say or think you believed in UR for a few years, brother, I'm telling you right now with FULL FAITH that what I am saying is dead on, your eyes were never fully opened to it. You may have believed, but you did not have faith in what you believed. And that makes all the difference in the world.
So, what exactly do YOU believe then? Explain Justice of God to me, and how the unrepentant sinner stands in front of a Holy, Just, Loving, God?
Is there torture involved? If so, how much? How long? How much pain? Does it depend on the sin?
I am not asking for a link to another man's website. I want your undefiled beliefs.
But, having said that, I did NOT set out reading him, to refute him. The Word and the Spirit did that.
But, also having said that.
Would you be shocked to know this about me.
I still believe in a partial reconciliation. Just not universal. And this is the primary reason. If the powers that be, on this earth, in our worlds, KNOW the Truth, which I firmly believe they do, and Christ Himself testified about these powers, and the blasphemy that accompanies them, then there is no way for a Just God to excuse them. His Word says He won't. Jesus says He won't. And I believe He won't. Period. There are no if, ands, or buts about it. No second chance FOR these people. These people USED God's Holy Name for benefit and power on this earth. No different than the devil would. No different than a beast would. No different than a false prophet would. They all have a fate awaiting them.
The reason I believe it is partial makes me a heretic. But it is ok. I accept that. But there are millions who DO NOT KNOW God, nor His Holy Son. They do not know there is a Higher Authority that desires us fully. So, how could someone who doesn't know, be held accountable? They cannot.
I refer back to those who DO. They know. They have had the gift of the Spirit. They have had forgiveness. They have come to the cross. And Jesus says He will spit these people out like the phlem they are. And if Jesus cannot stand to be in their presence? What makes anyone think the Father will? It is only through Jesus we come to the Father.
So, Uh oh. Houston, we have an issue then. There is no burning out the wickedness. There is no torture for a period of time, and then a release. There is nothing but death awaiting them, AFTER they are judged. And it isn't even a matter of knowing what they did, as they already NOW know what they are doing that is wrong and even worthy of death.
So, there it is.
I am somewhat in agreement with you. I have actually been on a website that is not entirely Universalist, but close. I believe they exclude Satan and others who know what is going on.
Satan, who knew God, and the people on this planet that are "in the know" and following the beast are clearly working against God. They know who he is and they are angry. They understand his love for the weak, powerless, helpless and they hate Him and the weak, powerless, and helpless. They want their own way in the Universe and can't stand to be told what to do. Complete rebellion. These are not people who don't understand God. They understand and want to overthrow Him and his followers. (not your average citizen )
The dark does know what it is doing. Hard to explain.
So.........Have been pondering these things.
(but, there still are verses that talk about EVERYTHING worshiping God in the end. And the Devil and his followers are TORMENTED in the presence of the Lamp (oops, I meant Lamb). What darkness wouldn't be tormented in the light? People that are caught in the middle of some evil deed are tormented by getting caught and having to answer for themselves in front of everybody. Imagine being caught by God and having to answer in front of everybody in the Universe for the mayhem and evil caused by you!)
I refer back to those who DO. They know. They have had the gift of the Spirit. They have had forgiveness. They have come to the cross. And Jesus says He will spit these people out like the phlem they are. And if Jesus cannot stand to be in their presence? What makes anyone think the Father will? It is only through Jesus we come to the Father.
So, Uh oh. Houston, we have an issue then. There is no burning out the wickedness. There is no torture for a period of time, and then a release. There is nothing but death awaiting them, AFTER they are judged. And it isn't even a matter of knowing what they did, as they already NOW know what they are doing that is wrong and even worthy of death.
So, there it is.
That's not what I get from reading this.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Sounds to me like people who think that are saved (spiriutally rich and increased with goods) yet are not following Christ.... they are actually spiritually poor, blind and naked and don't even know it. Still needing to repent.
Exactly... so what new and better promises came in the NT... what different things did Jesus come to share if it is all the same?
It isn't the same. You see, the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, and those who were saved in the OT times were saved by the Blood of the Lamb, although they saw it far off, it had never left them. Big difference. They were not looking at history, like modern day people do. They were looking through the Spirit and living accordingly.
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How can you accept something in your heart and soul unless you know it is true?
I have accepted many things in my life in my heart and soul to be true, until it was shown to be false. Who hasnt? Do you still believe in the easter bunny? Or Santa? Just wondering, as most kids just KNOW Santa shows up on Christmas Eve.
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I believe it is the guess work within ET/AN that keeps people in bondage.
And who is in bondage? See, this is what I am saying. I am having an intelligent conversation, and the response I get is condemnation and insults. I am not confused. If I was confused, I would be in bondage. If I questioned something, than this shows that I am passionate about learning the Truth.
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If you know you are forgiven then you can count on that... it is like positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement.
Ok. What does this have to do with anything? Do you believe forgiveness comes with repentance? If so, when? Before or after death? Define death?
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I have a problem with the acceptance of the free gift theory.
I don't. A gift is a gift. People can reject this gift, by the actions they do in response to the gift. IOW. I liken it, to giving you a thousand dollars. Even though I did it out of love, right, because you were destitute and in bondage to slavery? Well, if you turn around and buy a gun to shoot someone with the money I gave you, for more money, than is the gift any less? Nope. The gift was still a gift, done out of love. But you took the gift and murdered someone for personal gain. So, what then? Is it my fault for giving you the gift, even though you had free will to use the gift however you saw fit?
Same with the Blood of Jesus. It is Grace, and it is a gift. Now, how many USE this Gift given to us, in a manner worthy of the One who has given it?
Answer that, dear child, and we can move on.
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I liken it to Jesus paying a debt that was owed. Any subsequent debt is paid also therefore WHEN he paid the price.. that price included all future and past transactions. Sorta like getting free oil changes for life... Jesus paid them upfront... you can claim your prize now or later but the same debt owed is the same debt paid. There is no more sacrifice for sin therefore all sin must fall under that one sacrifice... thus paid.
So if sin was paid already.. why do you suppose you need to accept the payment? You were not paid. God was paid. God accepted the payment on your behalf.. my behalf.. etc.
If I paid your electric bill, you wouldn't have to accept it but the electric company would. You can pretend it wasn't paid but to the electric company it is paid..
Cute analogy, but not the same thing. The Gift of Grace, through the Blood of the Lamb, is something we do not hide. Electricity is only used for the purpose of the one using it. But the Blood of the Lamb is to be shared with ALL.
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If your debt is paid (as is all mankind's) then what is there to reap after this life?
Judgement.
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I believe "turn the other cheek" came from the Jewish idiom for if someone insults you you shouldn't insult them back.
Believe what you want. It is not how i know it to be.
It has more to do with perpetuating a wrong action and letting it go.
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So the problem I see is if you are not supposed to return what is done to you in retaliation or vengeance, why would God return evil for evil, rather than good for evil?
I didn't say anything about retaliation. I said it was a sign of non-forceful aggression. It is not backing down. Has nothing to do with striking back.
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Here is why I don't believe in annihilation...
And that is fine. I respect that. That is why you DO NOT see me pushing my beliefs on others.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Sounds to me like people who think that are saved (spiriutally rich and increased with goods) yet are not following Christ.... they are actually spiritually poor, blind and naked and don't even know it. Still needing to repent.
You actually agreed with me. Only they do 'think' they know it, and I will bet they definately have heard it. They choose to reject it.
You actually agreed with me. Only they do 'think' they know it, and I will bet they definately have heard it. They choose to reject it.
HotinAZ,
What Truth do you think that people hear and know to be true and then reject it and turn to a lie knowing that they are turning to a lie?
Who do you think are the ones who know the truth and reject it?
I have not heard anyone say that they know the truth and are knowingly turning to a lie, everyone believes what they perceive is true, usually based on what they are told -- that is how being deceived works.
When you tell your child that there is a Santa they are deceived by you - they trust you to tell them the truth and what you tell them is a fairy tale. When they start thinking and reasoning they then work out that what you told them was not true.
I think that what happens is that people may hear the truth but because they already believe a lie, they do not accept the truth.
What Truth do you think that people hear and know to be true and then reject it and turn to a lie knowing that they are turning to a lie?
Who do you think are the ones who know the truth and reject it?
I have not heard anyone say that they know the truth and are knowingly turning to a lie, everyone believes what they perceive is true, usually based on what they are told -- that is how being deceived works.
When you tell your child that there is a Santa they are deceived by you - they trust you to tell them the truth and what you tell them is a fairy tale. When they start thinking and reasoning they then work out that what you told them was not true.
I think that what happens is that people may hear the truth but because they already believe a lie, they do not accept the truth.
I will think of a response for you. Get back to you later on this. I know what I want to say, but must articulate the right words on how to say it. Time to pray. ok?
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Only they do 'think' they know it, and I will bet they definately have heard it. They choose to reject it.
