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The bible saying a day of God is like a thousand years to man and vice versa is a way of saing that God counts time differently. When he talks to us and gives us a statement in time, he talks based on our own time understanding.However when he gives a prophecy and says 'soon', etc, we canot say it will happen within our own time understanding. This cannot be and should not very difficult to grab.
As regards creation Science is wrong on evolution and on so many other things. It is wrong because the level of scientific understanding is still behind the accurate understanding of the universe and creation. They still have a long way to go. That part of reality that cannot be explained by our human science is what I call celestial science, which is Godly Science. God is the chief scientist, creating the universe or multiverse was not done by mere painting, no. Several interaction of matter must have taken place and we just don't know enough. To believe simply that the earth et al were created over six days is simply applying carnal knowledge to Bibilical understanding.
Then under the assumption that God is talking only things He understands(time wise) then you must agree that:
1) Creation was NOT 6 days, but 6000 years.
2) The Babylonian captivity was NOT 70 years but 70,000 years(Israel still in Babylon)
Is that what you are saying?
To state your argument means we must interpret ALL scripture "time texts" with this assumption. We cannot pick and choose, it either means the plain rendering of the scripture EVERYTIME or if God states even one "time text" without the plain rendering of it, we must do the same with ALL "time texts".
It must also mean that the following, do not mean the plain meaning of the words spoken(even though anyone hearing it would believe it did.)
(as compiled by Mark Green)
1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)
2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)
4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)
5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)
6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)
7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)
9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)
10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)
11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)
12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)
13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)
14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)
15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)
16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)
17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)
18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)
19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)
20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)
Would you change every single one of these(there are 81 more verses) to mean NOT what they actually say in the plain reading of them?
All "time texts" in scripture based upon ONE verse that only states "a day with the Lord is LIKE(not IS) a thousand years"?
Then under the assumption that God is talking only things He understands(time wise) then you must agree that:
1) Creation was NOT 6 days, but 6000 years.
2) The Babylonian captivity was NOT 70 years but 70,000 years(Israel still in Babylon)
Is that what you are saying?
To state your argument means we must interpret ALL scripture "time texts" with this assumption. We cannot pick and choose, it either means the plain rendering of the scripture EVERYTIME or if God states even one "time text" without the plain rendering of it, we must do the same with ALL "time texts".
It must also mean that the following, do not mean the plain meaning of the words spoken(even though anyone hearing it would believe it did.)
(as compiled by Mark Green)
1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)
2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)
4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)
5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)
6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)
7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)
9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)
10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)
11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)
12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)
13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)
14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)
15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)
16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)
17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)
18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)
19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)
20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)
Would you change every single one of these(there are 81 more verses) to mean NOT what they actually say in the plain reading of them?
All "time texts" in scripture based upon ONE verse that only states "a day with the Lord is LIKE(not IS) a thousand years"?
When time has been specified, we should take the time specified. When it is not specified, the we should not assume, because God's perspective is not man's perspective.
On the creation days, we can safely say that he created the universe in 6-Goddays. How long each interval (God-day) took, we are not sure, but it sure as hell could not have been 24 hours! We know that the earth is much older than 6000years, so its either our method of interpreting scripture is wrong or the scripture is wrong. I choose to believe the former.
Certainly am not. All am saying is that if he has not come, then he would be a lier and since he is not a lier, then he has come. You only need to sincerely seek him as he has come with a knew name and a new assignment as was clearly stated in Rev 3:12. The problems we see in the world bear testimony to the fact that he has arrived. The old order must give way for a new order.
Ohh, there will be a new order alright......it called THE NEW WORLD ORDER! Is that what you are now viewing on the horizon? Cause I can assure you what you "think" you're seeing, it ain't God! NO, not here yet....but SOON coming! Believe that.
Let's fast-forward to the BACK of the book...where we are presently in this age:
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7) King James Version
or.....
Look, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. (Rev. 1:7) New International Version
or.......
See, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those by whom He was wounded; and all the tribes of the earth will be sorrowing because of Him. Yes, so be it. (Rev. 1:7) Bible in Basic English
I mean, pick a version......they all mean what they say and say what they mean! Period. Our interpretation doesn't do it any justice. NONE! He's coming and ALL eyes, every tribe, will see Him! LISTEN up now: EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM!! Not past, nor present, but future event in which those that literally pierced Him, will see Him alongside you and I, amen? When have that ever happened in history?
And besides....as so many like to say: History repeats itself. So I ask you, if history REPEATS itself and He came BEFORE, why is it you don't believe He coming AGAIN?
Ohh, there will be a new order alright......it called THE NEW WORLD ORDER! Is that what you are now viewing on the horizon? Cause I can assure you what you "think" you're seeing, it ain't God! NO, not here yet....but SOON coming! Believe that.
Let's fast-forward to the BACK of the book...where we are presently in this age:
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7) King James Version
or.....
Look, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. (Rev. 1:7) New International Version
or.......
See, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those by whom He was wounded; and all the tribes of the earth will be sorrowing because of Him. Yes, so be it. (Rev. 1:7) Bible in Basic English
I mean, pick a version......they all mean what they say and say what they mean! Period. Our interpretation doesn't do it any justice. NONE! He's coming and ALL eyes, every tribe, will see Him! LISTEN up now: EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM!! Not past, nor present, but future event in which those that literally pierced Him, will see Him alongside you and I, amen? When have that ever happened in history?
And besides....as so many like to say: History repeats itself. So I ask you, if history REPEATS itself and He came BEFORE, why is it you don't believe He coming AGAIN?
Betsey
If God does not open our eyes to understand the scripture, we will not understand it. With all due respect, Betsey, you read the Bible as a novel. We are not arguing about his coming or not coming- we all agree he is coming. My point is that he must have come already. If he has not come then he is a liar and I know he is the Spirit of truth. Conventional understanding of the Bible is wrong. Christ must be in the world while these events described in Rev happen. He had told us the signs of his coming. WHich of those signs have we not seen? He said that this generation shall not pass away till the signs be fulfilled. The generation of our Lord Jesus Christ passed away in 2001 almost 2000 years after his birth.
Let me go to your quote;
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7)King James Version
He cometh with clouds: He cometh with power from above. It does not say he will descend through the clouds. Clouds is used to underline the might and mystery and power of God throughout the Bible. it is a spiritual description, don't read it literally.
Every eye will see Him: as he takes over the world (one sheep one shepard), the people of the world will be aware of His presence. Read Rev 5 1-end. It does not infer he will be in the sky. If he is in the sky over DC, will you see him in NY?
they also which pierced Him: In his new incarnation, those who killed him will also incarnate and would see him. They may not know that they killed him, till the end when the angel of death has been destroyed. It is like when the dead will hear the oice of the son of man. The voice they hear is a spiritual voice, it means that they will incarnate in the time and appearance of our Lord.
If God does not open our eyes to understand the scripture, we will not understand it. With all due respect, Betsey, you read the Bible as a novel. We are not arguing about his coming or not coming- we all agree he is coming. My point is that he must have come already. If he has not come then he is a liar and I know he is the Spirit of truth. Conventional understanding of the Bible is wrong. Christ must be in the world while these events described in Rev happen. He had told us the signs of his coming. WHich of those signs have we not seen? He said that this generation shall not pass away till the signs be fulfilled. The generation of our Lord Jesus Christ passed away in 2001 almost 2000 years after his birth.
Let me go to your quote;
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7)King James Version
He cometh with clouds: He cometh with power from above. It does not say he will descend through the clouds. Clouds is used to underline the might and mystery and power of God throughout the Bible. it is a spiritual description, don't read it literally.
Every eye will see Him: as he takes over the world (one sheep one shepard), the people of the world will be aware of His presence. Read Rev 5 1-end. It does not infer he will be in the sky. If he is in the sky over DC, will you see him in NY?
they also which pierced Him: In his new incarnation, those who killed him will also incarnate and would see him. They may not know that they killed him, till the end when the angel of death has been destroyed. It is like when the dead will hear the oice of the son of man. The voice they hear is a spiritual voice, it means that they will incarnate in the time and appearance of our Lord.
"With all due respect, Betsey, you read the Bible as a novel. We are not arguing about his coming or not coming- we all agree he is coming. My point is that he must have come already. If he has not come then he is a liar and I know he is the Spirit of truth......"
First you tell me that I read the Bible as a novel, then you said He must have come already, if not then He is a liar.....yet, you say He is the Spirit of truth. Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I'll give you some time........
I know he cannot be wrong because he is the Spirit of Truth. What is wrong is our own understanding of the scriptures. Let me take you back to the time of his first coming. His people expected the Messaiah,yet when he came they did not know him. 3 (they were actually 4 but one lost his way and saw him when he was crucified) strangers from Iran were the ones who were led to him and they presented gifts and worshipped him. God is the same yesterday today and forevermore. When Noah told the people to repent to avoid the deluge, he was mocked. The ways of God are hardly the popular refrain of the day. A toss of the coin - if they did not recognize him then do you reckon we will recognize him when he comes today? When even he had assured us that he will come like a thief in the night. When a thief comes does he announce his presence?
Understand that the people that crucified our Lord Jesus Christ were the religious leaders of those days. People who led the people in prayers to God. People who read the existing scriptures daily-people that had the adulation of men, who were versed in the previous order the laws of Moses. But when the priesthood changes, the law must also change. The very few band of believers that followed christ were men who earnestly searched for the truth about God. Most of them were followers of John the baptist before they met Jesus but they were brave men who were ready to lay down their lives for their believes. That was why Christ assured them salvation for doing the unthinkable-believing in his name. Believing in his name alone then was enough to grant them salvation.
These believers formed the nucleus of early christianity-different from the christendom of today. Then, Ananais and his wife for a simple trickery got judged and lost their lives - where is that church today? Where? The true Christian church that practiced the doctrines of Jesus do not exist again. There has been a falling away. The religion of men have taken over the world. They call God by their lips but their hearts are far removed from him: money is the main motive. The almighty dollar. Remove that allure and see how many will be left standing. That is why the whole world is judged according to John the divine's Revelations.
Unless we take the kingdom of God as little children, we will continue to make mistakes. Man is nothing, our wisdom is meaningless--the wisdom from above cannot be faulted.
When time has been specified, we should take the time specified. When it is not specified, the we should not assume, because God's perspective is not man's perspective.
On the creation days, we can safely say that he created the universe in 6-Goddays. How long each interval (God-day) took, we are not sure, but it sure as hell could not have been 24 hours! We know that the earth is much older than 6000years, so its either our method of interpreting scripture is wrong or the scripture is wrong. I choose to believe the former.
I disagree. If "God-Day" was actually more then 6 days in our understanding, He would not have stated 6 days, but He did.
According to science, the earth is more than 6000 years, but again, science also believes that we evolved. Science and the Bible conflict so many areas. If we stay with scripture we can determine that earth's history is 4300+ years old according to Bible Chronology.
I still disagree that God's perspective is what is being stated when He clearly stated prophecy in plain terms. God would have not stated anything to confuse us. He is not writing to Himself. He is writing to those He loves and wants for us to understand Him clearly.
If God meant in His perspective "time", why wouldn't He have used terms that we would understand such as 6000 years to create the world? Your belief that He is stating something not as it reads is an excuse, since there is no fulfillment in the time specified in certain scriptures we are changing the words to fit that conclusion.
God meant what He said. We cannot change the clear words of God to mean something else since He would have worded it differently if that is what He meant, but He didn't. The only thing we must change is our conclusion that it happened our way.
I provided scriptures of historical fulfillments in the time that God actually said they would happen in Isaiah, Nahum, Amos etc. and you haven't stated your opinion yet. Please comment.
1) Are these Kingdoms(Babylon, Edom, Nineveh etc.) still existing, or were they judged?
2) God said that Israel would be 70 years in captivity and they were restored to Jerusalem within that time frame. Is Israel still in a 70,000 year captivity(if it was God's perspective and the time was not what it plainly meant.)
3) God stated that the temple would be destroyed within a generation and it was within 40 years.
If it was with God's perspective then do you believe that none of these prophecies were fulfilled?
[/b]
First you tell me that I read the Bible as a novel, then you said He must have come already, if not then He is a liar.....yet, you say He is the Spirit of truth. Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I'll give you some time........
I am confused. Why do state that He must have come? I know we disagree on the timing issue but yet that is the evidence that He must have come or He is a liar based on what?............His time texts!
Here is the scripture.
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7)King James Version
Who are those that pierced Him? Is this not those that were alive in the 1st Century? If they would not see Christ on the clouds while they were alive and God meant when they were dead, it ruins the prophecy since ALL people for 4300 years will witness the same thing as well.
What is accomplished in Christ stating that they would see Him in His Kingdom if He meant it thousands of years later? It only makes sense that they would be ALIVE when He came in His Kingdom. That makes the judgement specific and centered in on those that "pierced Him".
If Christ meant this judgement only on those that instigated the crucifixion. would He have worded the prophecy any different?
Those that pierced Him were ALIVE historically when He came in the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. To bring this fulfillment thousands of years later destroys the judgement that Christ was giving to those that actually pierced Him. He meant that they would be alive to witness the fulfillment of His mission on earth.
If I was on trial and I stated that my accusers would witness my coming in my Kingdom, what benefit is there if they were dead when it happened? That makes know sense. The very words of Jesus force a fulfillment within their lifetime, not when they were already dead.
I disagree. If "God-Day" was actually more then 6 days in our understanding, He would not have stated 6 days, but He did.
According to science, the earth is more than 6000 years, but again, science also believes that we evolved. Science and the Bible conflict so many areas. If we stay with scripture we can determine that earth's history is 4300+ years old according to Bible Chronology.
I still disagree that God's perspective is what is being stated when He clearly stated prophecy in plain terms. God would have not stated anything to confuse us. He is not writing to Himself. He is writing to those He loves and wants for us to understand Him clearly.
If God meant in His perspective "time", why wouldn't He have used terms that we would understand such as 6000 years to create the world? Your belief that He is stating something not as it reads is an excuse, since there is no fulfillment in the time specified in certain scriptures we are changing the words to fit that conclusion.
God meant what He said. We cannot change the clear words of God to mean something else since He would have worded it differently if that is what He meant, but He didn't. The only thing we must change is our conclusion that it happened our way.
I provided scriptures of historical fulfillments in the time that God actually said they would happen in Isaiah, Nahum, Amos etc. and you haven't stated your opinion yet. Please comment.
1) Are these Kingdoms(Babylon, Edom, Nineveh etc.) still existing, or were they judged?
2) God said that Israel would be 70 years in captivity and they were restored to Jerusalem within that time frame. Is Israel still in a 70,000 year captivity(if it was God's perspective and the time was not what it plainly meant.)
3) God stated that the temple would be destroyed within a generation and it was within 40 years.
If it was with God's perspective then do you believe that none of these prophecies were fulfilled?
I see your point, but remember that Genesis was written by Moses who was inspired by angels. The writing of Genesis and indeed some of the Bible books showed some gaps. Even the Bible admits that itself. Like when it says the spirit of God was moving in the water - How long did that take place? When were the angels created? The same time he created man? Moses did not cover that or did he?
There are certain truths about creation which I'd rather not disclose at this juncture. The most important thing now is to understand that not everything was covered in the Bible. That is not saying the Bibe is wrong! But it just means that our absolute conclusion of bibilical text could be wrong.
Science is wrong in couple of issues- issues beyond its own ability to reason, but science is also right in a lot of isues, like dating etc. That we are discussing in this forum is a testament to science. Don't just diss of science.
Who are those that pierced Him? Is this not those that were alive in the 1st Century? If they would not see Christ on the clouds while they were alive and God meant when they were dead, it ruins the prophecy since ALL people for 4300 years will witness the same thing as well.
Sir (or Ma'm?), if we go by your reasoning his coming must have been during the Roman conquest of Jerusalem and subsequent exile of the Jews to all corners of the world in 70AD? But if that is the case, where was he during the war with the Romans? Was he phsically present? The answer is NO. In the prophecy of Mathew 24, Jesus talked about several events namely;
aa) When the destruction of the temples will occur
bb) The sign of his coming
cc) The end of the world
Please read carefully (Mat 24:2-3). Its not all about the end of the world. On the end of the world he informed them candidly that even he did not know but only his Father know. But christians assume that Jesus talked about the end of the world.
What is accomplished in Christ stating that they would see Him in His Kingdom if He meant it thousands of years later? It only makes sense that they would be ALIVE when He came in His Kingdom. That makes the judgement specific and centered in on those that "pierced Him".
If Christ meant this judgement only on those that instigated the crucifixion. would He have worded the prophecy any different?
If your understanding of life is the same as Christ, then perhaps you are right. But your life is more than your current existence. Christ does not look at your life as just your existence in the world at the moment, no. He knows who you were in your previous incarnations and who you will be in your next incarnations hence he told us that even those that killed him will be present at his coming!!!
Those that pierced Him were ALIVE historically when He came in the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. To bring this fulfillment thousands of years later destroys the judgement that Christ was giving to those that actually pierced Him. He meant that they would be alive to witness the fulfillment of His mission on earth.
See above explanation
If I was on trial and I stated that my accusers would witness my coming in my Kingdom, what benefit is there if they were dead when it happened? That makes know sense. The very words of Jesus force a fulfillment within their lifetime, not when they were already dead.
Jesus said: I am the resurrection and the life. He that believeth in me, though he were dead lives....
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