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I can't edit my last post any longer, but I meant to tell you that I started a thread on judging angels not too long ago, but not many posters out there seemed to know what that verse meant. I am very interested in these things lately. Those verses about judging angels and God showing them what it's all about have caught my eye, recently, for some reason. Something nagging at my brain.
I just can't seem to get that one about judging angels out of my head!
I can't edit my last post any longer, but I meant to tell you that I started a thread on judging angels not too long ago, but not many posters out there seemed to know what that verse meant. I am very interested in these things lately. Those verses about judging angels and God showing them what it's all about have caught my eye, recently, for some reason. Something nagging at my brain.
I just can't seem to get that one about judging angels out of my head!
Thanks, again, for your input.
If you look closely you will see that the word for angel simply means messenger. All prophets and teachers were referred to as messengers of God's word and therefore are judged. In fact they are judged more stringently because they taught others the word of God.
Anyway... just thought I'd point that out. I will post a more in depth explanation if you wanna bump your thread.
Judging does not always mean pronounce a sentence on....the judges of Israel simply were the rulers (dispensing God's law) over the Israelites. I think instead of us passing sentences upon angels (whether human or heavenly messengers......for a time those elect who are placed in ruling positions, will be those who give orders to them....but when ALL become subjected to Christ, under God, then even the Son of God will relinquish His power and authority to the Father and His will be the only authority in the universe.
If you look closely you will see that the word for angel simply means messenger. All prophets and teachers were referred to as messengers of God's word and therefore are judged. In fact they are judged more stringently because they taught others the word of God.
Anyway... just thought I'd point that out. I will post a more in depth explanation if you wanna bump your thread.
Thanks, katjonjj.
I'll bump it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren
Judging does not always mean pronounce a sentence on....the judges of Israel simply were the rulers (dispensing God's law) over the Israelites. I think instead of us passing sentences upon angels (whether human or heavenly messengers......for a time those elect who are placed in ruling positions, will be those who give orders to them....but when ALL become subjected to Christ, under God, then even the Son of God will relinquish His power and authority to the Father and His will be the only authority in the universe.
That's MY take on judging angels.
Thank you, ScarletWren. I'm looking for information on some obscure verses and trying to connect them to the Reconciliation of All. Not a lot of people understand them.
I am studying the Restitution of All Things, currently, so I am not quite sure where I stand at the moment on these issues. I don't usually listen too much when a poster is too intense and unyielding in their views, demanding that they, and only they know something. It comes off as arrogant, and nobody knows anything 100%!! That kind of behavior irritates me a bit, but I like your style, so I am paying attention.
Anyway, the angelic conflict is something I am very interested in for a number of reasons, none of which I can explain very well right now. I am quite certain that there is something kooky going on, which makes me mad much of the time. I like to keep things simple; I like to garden, to sit out in the sun, to smell the flowers and hear the birds chirping and such. But, unfortunately, my life has been a little too strange to just block whatever is going on, out.
My dad would say little things here and there that kind of startled me, such as, "Do you know who rules this world?" "Do you know Hitler will bow?" He was always saying little things here and there when we talked (he was always on edge, so it wasn't really talking, more like yelling) and I would get so frustrated.
My mom and dad fought like cats and dogs and, as I got older, it became really intense. The whole family split apart and is not really talking to each other any longer, and my mom just died last week; she seemed to be trying to tell me something before she died but was not able to get any words out. Nobody can get a hold of my dad (and he had a stroke weeks after I visited him last, anyway) so I am without any info these days. I used to get quite a bit from my parents.
Most Christians seem quite lost as to what is really going on or seem to have pieces here and there but not the whole, and I don't talk much to others these days. One of the last things my dad told me to do was to start studying the Restitution of All Things, which I ignored. When I finally started looking into it (I had kind of given up on Traditional Christianity because of all the nonsense and corruption) I started seeing things around me a little differently, or maybe a lot differently. Hundreds of little things that my parents had talked about when I was little have started making sense, barely. I am still a bit in the dark, but a lot has happened to me, strange and bizarre things, and I don't have a doubt that something is going on in a realm that we cannot see. What I am confused about is how the humans fit in and what the spirit realm is supposed to be learning exactly.
I asked the question not too long ago about the verse that talks about God reconciling things in HEAVEN and earth at the end of all things. (I have seen some pretty stupid commentary on that)
What is supposed to be reconciled from the heavens?
Revelation 5:13 has become my favorite verse these days.
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
I know that not everyone has all the answers; everybody has a piece of the puzzle, and I appreciate you being here and trying to explain your understanding of things. If things get too weird, though, I'll probably disappear into the background.
(Sven, another poster on this forum, has studied Enoch and discounts it as being biblical. Well, at least parts of it, I think. I would tend to agree with him for a number of reasons, but I will keep looking.)
Hi herefornow, it breaks the heart to hear such things that you have spoken of here, but the silver lining could be that because of your dad you are know looking into the restitution of all things, and this is a good thing.you are correct no one has all the answers we all know in part and all we can do is give forth that part and if God uses it to plant a seed in other He will also water that seed and growth will surely come.
I know not many beleive the first book of Enoch is scripture, but most christian beleive Jude is inspired of God, and Jude qouted a prophesy out of the First book of Enoch. Jude just didn't use the first book of Enoch as a reference but qouted prophesy directly from it. Therefore, Jude believed that prophesy was of God, and as he is an inspired writer should that not tell us that it is scripture?
IMO we either have to beleive it is scripture or beleive Jude was not inspired of God.
Hi herefornow, it breaks the heart to hear such things that you have spoken of here, but the silver lining could be that because of your dad you are know looking into the restitution of all things, and this is a good thing.you are correct no one has all the answers we all know in part and all we can do is give forth that part and if God uses it to plant a seed in other He will also water that seed and growth will surely come.
I know not many beleive the first book of Enoch is scripture, but most christian beleive Jude is inspired of God, and Jude qouted a prophesy out of the First book of Enoch. Jude just didn't use the first book of Enoch as a reference but qouted prophesy directly from it. Therefore, Jude believed that prophesy was of God, and as he is an inspired writer should that not tell us that it is scripture?
IMO we either have to beleive it is scripture or beleive Jude was not inspired of God.
Hi Bob sorry for the wait in replying, kids were down and I was working 12hr shift.
Anyway, let’s look at the word evil
In the Hebrew it is ra and these are the things it pertains to.
GK - 8273 { [r'
} & 8274 { [r'
adj
1) bad, evil
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)
Strongs Enhanced Lexicon
In the Greek two words (most frequently used) pertain to evil.
They are poneros and kakos and these are the things they pertain to.
4190 poneros { pon-ay-ros’}
from a derivative of 4192; TDNT - 6:546,912; adj
AV - evil 51, wicked 10, wicked one 6, evil things 2, misc 7; 76
GK - 4505 { ponhrov" }
1) full of labours, annoyances, hardships
1a) pressed and harassed by labours
1b) bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble
2) bad, of a bad nature or condition
2a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind
2b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad
The word is used in the nominative case in Mt. 6:13. This usually denotes a title in the Greek. Hence Christ is saying, deliver us from “The Evil”, and is probably referring to Satan.
Strongs Enhanced Lexicon
2556 kakos { kak-os’}
apparently a primary word; TDNT - 3:469,391; adj
AV - evil 40, evil things 3, harm 2, that which is evil + 3458 2, wicked 1, ill 1, bad 1, noisome 1; 51
GK - 2805 { kakov" }
1) of a bad nature
1a) not such as it ought to be
2) of a mode of thinking, feeling, acting
2a) base, wrong, wicked
3) troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, baneful
Strongs Enhanced Lexicon
Now you make a distinction when you say God does not do moral evil but some other kind of evil. Which evil in these words does God get to do that is moral for Him but immoral for man?
Can God be malignant causing distress, misery, injury, or calamity? Which are words taken from the meaning of ra.
According to most people, God can do these evil things because He can use these evils to bring about His grand purpose. Is this thought scripturally based?
We all know that God is Love correct?
So what do the scriptures say about love?
Love worketh know ill/evil/kakos Ro.13:10
Now look up the words that pertain to kakos.
What do we see?
We see that love works no thing that is evil, wrong, wicked troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, or baneful.
Now look at the words that pertain to ra.
From ra we have causing distress, misery, injury, or calamity.
The same types of words that Love will not do.
Now ask yourself does Love create these things or does it cut down or cut out these things.
What else do we know of love?
Charity means love, which is what God is.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Therefore if Love (God is Love) neither worketh nor thinketh evil (wrong, wicked troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, or baneful acts) why believe that God created evil?
Now let’s look at what Jesus says of evil.
Matthew 7:16-18
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Evil here is the Greek word poneros, read again the meaning of poneros.
A good tree does not bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble.
Yet this is exactly what most Christian believe God does.
They believe God brings toils, annoyances, perils causing pain and trouble to test the Christian faith. Those who believe God does these things have flipped the meaning on its end and completely changed its meaning.
Remember this is all taking about the fruits that proceed out of man and the way we know whether they are children of God or not. So if God can produce evil OF ANY KIND how in the world are we then able to discern who is a child of God and who is not?
Jesus also says
Matthew 12:34-35
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
If God created evil as so many believe then evil came out from the abundance of Gods heart. God help us all to see that He is a God of LOVE and worketh nor thinketh any evil.
Bob you and I have debated this topic for a couple of years now and we both seem to be steadfast in our understanding. So I don’t know whether what I say here will be of benefit to you or others or not but I will endeavor to show you why I believe as I do. I will use you post below as a springboard towards explaining myself.
Quote:
Hi Scott (Bob here)... That verse ends in a question mark. It doesn't make a declaration, it asks a rhetorical question.
Lamentation 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Most translators are orthodox Christians, believing in free will. not believing God intended for man to sin. Yet all of them translate that verse as a rhetorical question with an implied answer of "Yes".
NKJV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed?
NLT Is it not the Most High who helps one and harms another?
NIV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
ESV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?
NASB Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth?
RSV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?
ASV Out of the mouth of the Most High cometh there not evil and good?
YNG From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the evils and the good.
DBY Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?
WEB Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
HNV Doesn't evil and good come out of the mouth of Ha`Elyon?
KJV Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
That verse is not talking about moral evil coming from God. I agree that God never says or does anything morally evil. If that verse were talking about moral evil then the answer would be "No". But that verse is talking about the wrath of God (described throughout the preceding verses) which is called RA throughout scripture. For example, we'd both agree that God was not thinking of doing anything morally evil here yet the verse does say that God thought to do RA.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Job, without sinning with His lips declared that RA comes from God (again this is not moral evil coming from God).
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
So there are two reasons in scripture that God brings RA upon man
a) as wrath, judgment for sin
b) to try the righteous (e.g. Job)
You said all the translators translate that verse as a rhetorical question with an implied answer of "Yes".
And that is probably true, but is it correct?
Maybe they translated it that way because they believed the answer was yes.
From the days of the apostles, the Jewish scribes tampered with the scriptures, omitting things and changing others. Justin martyr a disciple of the apostle John in his discourse with Trypho the Jew belaboured this fact.
And it did not stop there.
As Calvinism had such a sway on the English-speaking people the KJV was written with a Calvinistic slant.
Example: Acts 2:47 says
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
But that is not what the original says it really says
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved.
Were being was changed to should be in order to give the scriptures a Calvinistic slant.
In order to give truth to the trinity this scripture was added to what John said, it is not in the early manuscripts.
1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Man has played freely with the word of God, omitting and adding to it according to their understanding of God.
Even one so great as Moses added to the scriptures because of the hardness of men’s hearts Mt.19:7-8
Even Jeremiah warns us of the false pens of the scribes.
How do ye say, We [are] wise, And the law of Jehovah [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes. Jer.8:8 YLT
One of the reasons for Jesus being sent was to reveal the Father to us Lu.10:21-22
And eternal/aionious life is knowing God Jn.17:3
Why?
Because the Jews view of God in the Old Testament was of a God of good and evil. Therefore, because they viewed God after this fashion they wrote of Him after this fashion. This view whether people can see it or not is still carried on today by almost every Christian and is one of the reason so many of God children believe God will eternally torment most of His creation.
Stop the insanity, the Jews of old did not know the Father, the Father can ONLY be revealed to us through the Son. What does the Son say to us of the Father?
Love worketh nor thinketh evil.
Brother anything we read in scripture that does not add up to what Jesus taught us of the Father then it was either added to scriptures or the scriptures were changed in order of the way people viewed God. And yes that includes bad translations.
I stand by my translation Bob, God cuts down evil he does not create it.
Darkness was upon the face of the deep, what happened?
God said let there be light.
What happened when the light appeared?
The darkness was cut down.
God bless
P.S. no one has to agree with what I wrote; I only ask that people would pray about it. I don’t have all the answers this is just the way I see it. My God give us ALL eyes to see and ears to hear and if I am wrong may He open my eyes to see more clearly. Amen.
From the days of the apostles, the Jewish scribes tampered with the scriptures, omitting
As Calvinism had such a sway on the English-speaking people the KJV was written with a Calvinistic slant.
Man has played freely with the word of God, omitting and adding to it according to their understanding of God.
P.S. no one has to agree with what I wrote; I only ask that people would pray about it. I don’t have all the answers this is just the way I see it. My God give us ALL eyes to see and ears to hear and if I am wrong may He open my eyes to see more clearly. Amen.
Thanks for all of that, pneuma!
I have had such a hard time believing in the past that man tampered with the scripture. It is such a terrible thing to do, but when those that rule this world truly have no fear of God and don't mind terrifying the masses into following them........
Those at the top have done UNBELIEVABLE things! I hope their time is about up!
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