Did God intend for man to sin? (Jehovah, exodus, pray)
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I agree bro that it is by overcomming through the spirit, but alas we know that adam did not overcome but fell into the sin that was in the world before the commandment came.
Adam failed in his temptation, Christ did not
Agreed, but is is by the victory of Christ on the cross and the work of the spirit in our lives that we overcome and thus teach the principalities the manifold wisdom of God in his creating all things according to his own council and purpose and for his own good pleasure ...
Hmmm, God did not put the serpent in the garden with two children, God put two children in the garden with the sepent.
And yes it was for a bigger purpose.
That purpose being so that those two children could preach the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in heavenly places
Ephesians 3:10-11
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Yes, I just posted the Ephesians verse in post #52. Just trying to tie it all together.
However, the best part of these scriptures state out of the mouth of God proceedeth NOT evil and good. Moreover, God always creates by His word so how do you reconcile God creating evil in Is.45:7 with what is stated here?
Hi Scott (Bob here)... That verse ends in a question mark. It doesn't make a declaration, it asks a rhetorical question.
Lamentation 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Most translators are orthodox Christians, believing in free will. not believing God intended for man to sin. Yet all of them translate that verse as a rhetorical question with an implied answer of "Yes".
NKJV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed?
NLT Is it not the Most High who helps one and harms another?
NIV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
ESV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?
NASB Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth?
RSV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?
ASV Out of the mouth of the Most High cometh there not evil and good?
YNG From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the evils and the good.
DBY Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?
WEB Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
HNV Doesn't evil and good come out of the mouth of Ha`Elyon?
KJV Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
That verse is not talking about moral evil coming from God. I agree that God never says or does anything morally evil. If that verse were talking about moral evil then the answer would be "No". But that verse is talking about the wrath of God (described throughout the preceding verses) which is called RA throughout scripture. For example, we'd both agree that God was not thinking of doing anything morally evil here yet the verse does say that God thought to do RA.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Job, without sinning with His lips declared that RA comes from God (again this is not moral evil coming from God).
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
So there are two reasons in scripture that God brings RA upon man
a) as wrath, judgment for sin
b) to try the righteous (e.g. Job)
Yes, I just posted the Ephesians verse in post #52. Just trying to tie it all together.
Are you Universalist?
Hi hereforenow, If a handle must be placed upon me universalist fits the best as I beleive all men will be saved through Christ.
P.S. as you seem interested in the preaching to the angelic in my post to iron I will be saying some things to this effect, so if interested keep an eye out for the post hopefully later today.
Hi Scott (Bob here)... That verse ends in a question mark. It doesn't make a declaration, it asks a rhetorical question.
Lamentation 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Most translators are orthodox Christians, believing in free will. not believing God intended for man to sin. Yet all of them translate that verse as a rhetorical question with an implied answer of "Yes".
NKJV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed?
NLT Is it not the Most High who helps one and harms another?
NIV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
ESV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?
NASB Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth?
RSV Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?
ASV Out of the mouth of the Most High cometh there not evil and good?
YNG From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the evils and the good.
DBY Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?
WEB Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
HNV Doesn't evil and good come out of the mouth of Ha`Elyon?
KJV Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
That verse is not talking about moral evil coming from God. I agree that God never says or does anything morally evil. If that verse were talking about moral evil then the answer would be "No". But that verse is talking about the wrath of God (described throughout the preceding verses) which is called RA throughout scripture. For example, we'd both agree that God was not thinking of doing anything morally evil here yet the verse does say that God thought to do RA.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Job, without sinning with His lips declared that RA comes from God (again this is not moral evil coming from God).
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
So there are two reasons in scripture that God brings RA upon man
a) as wrath, judgment for sin
b) to try the righteous (e.g. Job)
Hi Bob always a pleasure to hear from you.
I will be posting a response later today (hopefully), that will address irons and your post.
Well, i don't have the time to answer this entire post at this time ... But i wanted to say that God created Satan. Satan did not always exist. And God new satan would be evil, according to Christ he was a liar from the beginning. So either you take the Lucifer argument and believe that Satan became evil later on for some unknown reason, or he was always evil. I'm not sure where you stand but either you believe God created Satan, or you believe that Satan always existed.
Oh boy Iron you don’t realise the depth of the questions you have asked me here.
I am going to have to answer each question separately and even then these post will be quite long. So if anyone has a complaint about that they can blame you LOL
The earth that then was
Before you read this let me warn you that there are some strange things written therein that most will likely reject, so all I ask of the reader is that they take what I put forth here before the Lord and ask Him concerning it.
Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Thus the heavens and the earth were created in the BEGINNING
And the DEVIL sinneth from the beginning.
1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The word WAS here is also translated BECAME so verse two can be read “And the earth BECAME without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters“.
Now as Is.45:18 say that God did NOT create the earth in VAIN which is the same Hebrew words as WITHOUT FORM something must have happened between verse 1 & 2 that caused the earth to be WITHOUT FORM.
What happened?
According to 2Pet.3:5-7 the first heaven and the earth was overflowed with water.
2 Peter 3:5-7
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Now some might argue that this is speaking of the flood in the days of Noah when the earth was flooded. And upon first glance it does look like that. But is that a proper understanding?
Did the flood in Noah’s day overflow both heaven and earth (the WORLD)?
World here is kosmos and Kosmos is in reference to the whole universe, the HEAVENS and the EARTH.
So what Peter is saying is that the overflow of water covered both the HEAVEN and the EARTH.
Yet in the days of Noah only the EARTH was overflowed with water.
Therefore Peter must be talking about some other overflow of water, and the only other time it speaks of an overflow of water is in Gen.1
Now remember Peter says the HEAVEN and the EARTH ( kosmos ) was overflowed with water.
So lets go back to Gen.1:6-10 and see if the HEAVEN and the EARTH (kosmos ) was overflowed with water.
We read
Genesis 1:6-10
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
According to these scriptures the waters overflowed both the HEAVEN and the EARTH, this is the only time in scripture that God had to separate the water in HEAVEN, nothing like this occurred in the days of Noah, thus Peter was speaking about a flood far greater then that of the flood of Noah.
Another point that backs the flood spoken of in Peter is NOT in reference to the flood in Noah’s day but is in reference to a flood that was hidden in secret from man is that Peter says the people were ignorant or unaware of this flood.
Everyone has heard about the flood in Noah’s day no one is ignorant of it.
From Strong’s
Ignorant
2990 lanthano { lan-than’-o}
a prolonged form of a primitive verb, which is used only as an alt. in certain tenses;; v
AV - be hid 3, be ignorant of 2, unawares 1; 6
GK - 3291 { lanqavnw }
1) to be hidden, to be hidden from one, secretly, unawares, without knowing
So why was the HEAVEN and the EARTH overflowed with water?
According to Peter the flood of Noah’s day was a figure of the baptism that saves us. 1Peter 20-21
Now as the flood waters of Noah’s day which only covered the earth is a figure of baptism unto salvation for man , what then can be said of the flood of the HEAVENS?
Does this not tell us that all those in the HEAVENS also have need of the baptism that saves?
According to Job the HEAVENS are not clean in His sight, does this then not imply that those in the HEAVENS have need of the baptism unto salvation? Sure it does, for the writer of Hebrews states that the HEAVENLY things are purified by a better sacrifice.
Job 15:15
15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Hebrews 9:23
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
So lets go back to Gen.1:2 and Is.45:18 and compare the two.
Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isaiah 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Both the words WITHOUT FORM in Gen.1:2 and VAIN in Is.45:18 are the same words.
Thus it is clear that God did not make the earth WITHOUT FORM and as He did not make it WITHOUT FORM then something must have happened to the EARTH to make it that way.
Now some might argue that the WITHOUT FORM was before the earth was made, but it is clear from verse 2 that the earth was already in place for it specifically says the EARTH was WITHOUT FORM.
Now remember that in verse 2 of Gen. the word WAS is also translated BECAME which backs up Isaiah 45:18 that God did not create the earth WITHOUT FORM but the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM.
Now if we only had Isaiah 45:18 to go on people might say that we need a second witness to the earth BECOMING WITHOUT FORM.
Well let’s look at Gen.1:28
Genesis 1:28
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Did you get that? God said REPLENISH the EARTH.
This is the exact same command God gave Noah after the flood Gen.9:1
Now it should go without saying (but I am going to say it anyway) that if the earth is to be REPLENISHED then it must have had inhabitants before, just as the earth was inhabited before the flood in Noah’s day.
Gen.1:28 supports the translation in Gen.1:2 that the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM and Is.45:18 that God never created the earth WITHOUT FORM.
Now some might argue that how can there have been another heaven and earth before this one that God overflowed with water, would that not then mean death was in the world before Adam sinned?
I can answer this two ways.
First: Gen.2:17 says
Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The literal translation of thou shalt surely die is DYING THOU SHALT DIE
This literal reading clearly shows DEATH was in the world BEFORE Adam ate from the tree.
Now some might argue and say but if that is the case why does the bible say that Adam brought sin into the world and death by sin.
Lets look at the scripture
Romans 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
This set of scriptures clearly says that until the LAW sin was in the world but sin was not IMPUTED.
Thus if sin was not IMPUTED until Adam broke God’s LAW(commandment) not to eat of the tree then neither was death IMPUTED. Once Adam broke God’s LAW both sin and death was IMPUTED unto him and death by sin entered into the world.
Second: The world that then was spoken of in 2 Peter 3:5-7 was NOT the world Adam was created into, Adam brought sin into OUR WORLD not the world that then was.
As we have just seen that before the flood in Noah’s day that covered the earth there was a flood long before that which overflowed the HEAVEN and EARTH THAT THEN WAS.
So why did God have need overflow the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was?
Because of the angels that sinned and kept not their first estate.
2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jude 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
According to the book of Revelation there was a war in HEAVEN and the OLD SERPENT called the DEVIL was cast out along with his ANGELS into the EARTH.
Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
What was the reason for this war?
According to Is. And Eze. It was because Satan wanted to exalt himself and be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Ezekiel 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Now I know some see these scriptures as referring to Satan, some to man(Adam) and some to the antichrist.
For myself I believe it is referring to all 3, there are layers to scripture and each layer holds the truth. Just read what the scriptures state about the antichrist and then compare those scriptures to these ones and you will see how these scriptures have reference to him.
Then read what the scriptures state about man (Adam) and you will see how these scriptures have reference to him. And just as they have reference to both man (Adam) and the antichrist they also have if you read about Satan reference to him. It is layer upon layer upon layer.
The problem with most people is that they see one layer and believe that it is the only layer there is, but you don’t often find gold lying upon the earth, you have to mine for it.
Now many here are probably saying eek gad he believes in the Lucifer myth, but whether you believe Lucifer is in reference to satan or not does not take away from the fact that scriptures tell us that angels sinned and kept not their first estate. Moreover, scripture also tells us satan and his angels were cast into the earth.
We also have an account of this happening in the first book of Enoch, which goes into greater detail about satan and his angels. Now I know not many believe the book of Enoch is scripture, mostly because those who put the bible together did not see fit to add it. However, that does not mean it is not scripture.
Here are a few points as to why I believe it to be scripture.
--Jude quotes a prophesy out of the book of Enoch
--Enoch is a far older manuscript than any other books of scripture
--Man put together the 66 books we have our bible today, leaving out some books, and adding others. If people do a search of what books were not deemed scriptural in the early church they would see that the early church was suspect of the book of Revelations as well as some of the other books we have in our bible today. In addition, many of the early church fathers used the first book of Enoch, quoting it as scripture.
Thus Satan and his angels were cast into the earth and then HEAVENS and EARTH THAT THEN WAS were overflowed with water.
Now some might ask if Satan and his angels were overflowed with water why are they here in OUR world?
Herein is one of those layers to scripture I spoke on earlier. Lucifer is in reference to Satan and man and the reason why is because in the earth that then was Satan was a MAN. That does not mean he was a MAN such as we are, but is different from us in the same way the angelic are MEN yet differ from us. Man was made a little lower than the angelic.
I already know many are shaking their heads at this and probably thinking I am nuts, but all through scripture angels are referred to as MEN.
Revelation 21:17
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
We all know of the story of Sodom and Gomorra and how 3 MEN met Abraham and how 2 of those MEN went into that city and the scriptures tell us those 2 MEN were ANGELS. Gen. chapters 18 and 19
Now some might say ok I have a point but that does not explain why Satan is here in OUR world.
The reason being is he is now a SPIRIT, just as the waters that overflowed in the days of Noah did not destroy MANS SPIRIT just MANS body so to in the flood that overflowed the earth that then was.
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Thus the body was dead but the SPIRIT lives on.
For a clearer understanding of this look again of what it says in Isaiah and what happened to Lucifer. Scripture states that he would be cast down to HELL.
HELL here is SHEOL in the Hebrew and HADES in the Greek and means the place of the DEAD or dwelling place of the DEAD.
Yet in Revelations it say Satan is cast into the EARTH thus making HELL (SHEOL/HADES) here on EARTH.
Think about what God said would happen to Adam if he ate from the tree, God said Adam would DIE in the DAY he ate from it.
So what happened to Adam on the DAY he ate?
He was cast out of the garden into HELL (SHEOL/HADES) and as ALL die in Adam ALL are in the place of the DEAD which is HELL (SHEOL/HADES).
Proverbs 15:24 says
24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Deuteronomy 32:22 says
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
These scripture are clear testimony that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the EARTH we live in, for how else can the fire that burns into the lowest HELL consume the EARTH.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Ever wonder why the everlasting fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels and nothing is said about it being prepared for mankind?
It because this EARTH (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) was not PREPARED for man, the GARDEN was /is to be our dwelling place.
Remember HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the dwelling place of the DEAD.
Now read
Ephesians 2:1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
It is clear from these scriptures that those who walk according to the course of THIS WORLD are DEAD in trespasses and sin, and that Jesus came to give us LIFE that we may sit with Him in HEAVENLY PLACES. Thus Jesus came to save us OUT OF HELL.
So then now that we have seen that the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was, was overflowed with water, that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is this EARTHLY REALM and that Satan dwells in this prison house as SPIRIT we can gain some insight to why Gen.1:2 says the EARTH BECAME WITHOUT FORM and the reason why God RECREATED the EARTH and placed MAN into it.
Satan is now a SPIRIT and is the god and prince of this world
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
And is why scripture tells us that when we walked according to the course of this world
We walked according to the prince of the power of the air, that SPIRIT that worketh in the children of disobedience.
Ephesians 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
This world is not God world but Satan’s and he is king in it and when Adam disobeyed God Adam entered into Satan’s world, the dwelling place of the DEAD.
This is seen in that Jesus states
John 8:23
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Jesus is NOT of this WORLD and is why the prince of this WORLD has nothing in Him.
Jesus also states
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus KINGDOM is NOT of this WORLD, and this can be seen in Jesus temptation of the DEVIL.
Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
It is obvious that for one to give something away one must be in possession of that which one gives away. Thus the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD belong to Satan.
We all know of the Greek mythology of HADES and how he is the ruler of his domain, did you ever wonder were this mythology came from?
It is not just something the Greek made up, it comes from the truth and like all of Satan’s tricks he corrupted the truth within mythology so man cannot discern fact from fiction.
There is truth in all mythology but it is covered up in mythology so that we cannot see the truth for the mythology, kind of like we can’t see the forest for all the trees.
I watched a program on TV awhile back and etched in the stones of the days of the Pharaohs when Israel was held captive was a story written about a man god who came to earth and died and rose again, it basically followed the story of Jesus, but was of Egyptian origin and this man god was of the Egyptians. The program was used to say the Christian of today believe in one of the myths of the Egyptians. That we took this myth that was written thousands of years before Christ and made up our own myths to support our religion.
So were did the Egyptians thousands of years before Christ came come up with this myth that so resembles the truth found in Christ?
The answer can be found in that Israel was a captive of Egypt and the Egyptians more then likely after reading their scriptures much as did the Romans in the day of Christ understood in part a truth written in them, or more likely thought to themselves that these Israelites have a better sounding God then the ones we serves so let’s make up our own version of their God and put it before the people. Thus taking the truth found in scripture and corrupting it.
So then we can see that Satan the ruler of this world.
So why would God create man from the dust of this world, which is the dust of the dead.
This is the age-old question: WHY did God make MAN.
The answer is not what you likely think it is.
God created MAN for the salvation of the ANGELIC.
Just as God sent Jesus into this world (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) to save man, Jesus sends forth His body (the church) to make known the fellowship of the mystery, which mystery is the salvation of the whole kosmos, which was God intent from the BEGININNG, to the principalities and powers in heavenly places.
Ephesians 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
This is seen more fully when we see that kingdoms of THIS WORLD which belong to Satan become the kingdoms of our LORD.
Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
What! know ye not that we shall judge angels? 1Co.6:3
Man simply does not realise his full potential in Christ, for Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Corinthians 2:9
God creating evil or vessels of wrath for the purpose of "making his power known" is not the same as saying that evil is a fruit of God. I believe you are taking that out of context, and that many scriptures concerning God hardening whom he will harden do not agree with your interpretation.
Creating evil and creating vessels of wrath are not the same thing.If God created man to sin or satan a sinner at their creation brother, then sin is a fruit which sprang directly from God.
What I notice in these discussions brother is that many UR”s believe that God’s wrath when recorded in the New Testament believe His wrath to be corrective. However, when scripture talks about God’s wrath in the Old Testament they seem to forget that His wrath is corrective, and revert to the Jews of old understanding of the Father; believing the Father can do both good and evil. I will speak more on this in my post to Bob.
As to the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, whom God has hardened you will note that Pharaoh is used as the type. If you look up Pharaohs’ story in the OT you will see that Pharaoh first hardened his own heart.
Moreover, God does not harden man’s heart after the fashion people seem to think. God uses love, truth, kind words and all the fruits of the spirit, for does not the scriptures tell us that these things add coals of fire upon those who would abuse His children.
Think of it this way, Gods light not only causes man to see but can also blind the eye.
God does not use evil to harden man’s heart He uses His word, man does not like the words God speaks and harden their hearts towards God.
So does God harden man’s heart? Yes, but it is done through light and not darkness, it is done through good and not evil.
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It also means God is out of control of his creation, and if God did not want evil to exist then God is not sovereign over his creation.
It means no such thing brother. God is not the ruler of this world YET, Satan rules it through man. Sovereignty always denotes those who rule and Jesus said the prince/ruler of this world cometh and has no part of me.
Jesus also said my kingdom is NOT of this world.
Why people want to believe God is sovereign in this world right now is beyond me especially in light of Jesus proclamations.
Do not the scriptures tell us that the kingdom of THIS world will become the kingdoms of Christ?
Do you believe this has taken place already?
If not, why believe that God is sovereign in this world right now?
If you do believe this has already taken place, why did Jesus teach us to pray thy WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven?
Would it not be redundant for Jesus to teach us to pray after this fashion if Gods will was already being done?
Do you honestly believe that God’s will is being done on earth right now with all the evil in this world such as killing, molestation, rape etc?
Brother if God is ruling this earth right now, what do we have to look forward to in the new earth? If the way things are happening in this earth right now is any indication of the way God rules we might as well all just give up.
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And the fact remains the same, according to ancient Judaism, God created Satan for the purpose of being an adversary to man.
Well I don’t know if that is what the Jews of old believed or not, but what does it prove if they did? They missed the boat on the Father and the Son so who’s to say they didn’t on Satan also.
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Just read Job and you'll see that Satan and God are not at odds, but God uses Satan to test Job. In fact Satan has no power other than the power God gives him according to Job. So that story completely blows the idea that God is not in control of evil and does not use it for his own purposes out of the water.
Well if God and Satan are not at odds, why does Satan mean adversary? And why is it Jesus came to destroy all the works of the devil.
It seems to me when people read the book of Job they only surface read it, but it is a book of mystery as much as is the book of Revelation and not everything is as it seems.
For instance, do you really believe God can be persuaded by Satan to do anything let alone persuade God to do something against someone without cause? Job 2:3
For instance, why is the advice ofEliphaz the Temanite given in 5:17 wrong, when it is the same advice the writer of Hebrews gives?
Job 5:17
17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Hebrews 12:5
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Could it be because Eliphaz the Temanite MISTAKENLY thought what was happening to Job was the chastening of the Lord?
I have more to say on this, but it will be in my post to Bob
Bob I will be writting you back, but it may take awhile (so I will not likely be responding today) as I want to look a few things up and my kids are down from Toronto for a couple of days.
Oh boy Iron you don’t realise the depth of the questions you have asked me here.
I am going to have to answer each question separately and even then these post will be quite long. So if anyone has a complaint about that they can blame you LOL
The earth that then was
Before you read this let me warn you that there are some strange things written therein that most will likely reject, so all I ask of the reader is that they take what I put forth here before the Lord and ask Him concerning it.
Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Thus the heavens and the earth were created in the BEGINNING
And the DEVIL sinneth from the beginning.
1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The word WAS here is also translated BECAME so verse two can be read “And the earth BECAME without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters“.
Now as Is.45:18 say that God did NOT create the earth in VAIN which is the same Hebrew words as WITHOUT FORM something must have happened between verse 1 & 2 that caused the earth to be WITHOUT FORM.
What happened?
According to 2Pet.3:5-7 the first heaven and the earth was overflowed with water.
2 Peter 3:5-7
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Now some might argue that this is speaking of the flood in the days of Noah when the earth was flooded. And upon first glance it does look like that. But is that a proper understanding?
Did the flood in Noah’s day overflow both heaven and earth (the WORLD)?
World here is kosmos and Kosmos is in reference to the whole universe, the HEAVENS and the EARTH.
So what Peter is saying is that the overflow of water covered both the HEAVEN and the EARTH.
Yet in the days of Noah only the EARTH was overflowed with water.
Therefore Peter must be talking about some other overflow of water, and the only other time it speaks of an overflow of water is in Gen.1
Now remember Peter says the HEAVEN and the EARTH ( kosmos ) was overflowed with water.
So lets go back to Gen.1:6-10 and see if the HEAVEN and the EARTH (kosmos ) was overflowed with water.
We read
Genesis 1:6-10
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
According to these scriptures the waters overflowed both the HEAVEN and the EARTH, this is the only time in scripture that God had to separate the water in HEAVEN, nothing like this occurred in the days of Noah, thus Peter was speaking about a flood far greater then that of the flood of Noah.
Another point that backs the flood spoken of in Peter is NOT in reference to the flood in Noah’s day but is in reference to a flood that was hidden in secret from man is that Peter says the people were ignorant or unaware of this flood.
Everyone has heard about the flood in Noah’s day no one is ignorant of it.
From Strong’s
Ignorant
2990 lanthano { lan-than’-o}
a prolonged form of a primitive verb, which is used only as an alt. in certain tenses;; v
AV - be hid 3, be ignorant of 2, unawares 1; 6
GK - 3291 { lanqavnw }
1) to be hidden, to be hidden from one, secretly, unawares, without knowing
So why was the HEAVEN and the EARTH overflowed with water?
According to Peter the flood of Noah’s day was a figure of the baptism that saves us. 1Peter 20-21
Now as the flood waters of Noah’s day which only covered the earth is a figure of baptism unto salvation for man , what then can be said of the flood of the HEAVENS?
Does this not tell us that all those in the HEAVENS also have need of the baptism that saves?
According to Job the HEAVENS are not clean in His sight, does this then not imply that those in the HEAVENS have need of the baptism unto salvation? Sure it does, for the writer of Hebrews states that the HEAVENLY things are purified by a better sacrifice.
Job 15:15
15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Hebrews 9:23
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
So lets go back to Gen.1:2 and Is.45:18 and compare the two.
Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isaiah 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Both the words WITHOUT FORM in Gen.1:2 and VAIN in Is.45:18 are the same words.
Thus it is clear that God did not make the earth WITHOUT FORM and as He did not make it WITHOUT FORM then something must have happened to the EARTH to make it that way.
Now some might argue that the WITHOUT FORM was before the earth was made, but it is clear from verse 2 that the earth was already in place for it specifically says the EARTH was WITHOUT FORM.
Now remember that in verse 2 of Gen. the word WAS is also translated BECAME which backs up Isaiah 45:18 that God did not create the earth WITHOUT FORM but the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM.
Now if we only had Isaiah 45:18 to go on people might say that we need a second witness to the earth BECOMING WITHOUT FORM.
Well let’s look at Gen.1:28
Genesis 1:28
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Did you get that? God said REPLENISH the EARTH.
This is the exact same command God gave Noah after the flood Gen.9:1
Now it should go without saying (but I am going to say it anyway) that if the earth is to be REPLENISHED then it must have had inhabitants before, just as the earth was inhabited before the flood in Noah’s day.
Gen.1:28 supports the translation in Gen.1:2 that the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM and Is.45:18 that God never created the earth WITHOUT FORM.
Now some might argue that how can there have been another heaven and earth before this one that God overflowed with water, would that not then mean death was in the world before Adam sinned?
I can answer this two ways.
First: Gen.2:17 says
Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The literal translation of thou shalt surely die is DYING THOU SHALT DIE
This literal reading clearly shows DEATH was in the world BEFORE Adam ate from the tree.
Now some might argue and say but if that is the case why does the bible say that Adam brought sin into the world and death by sin.
Lets look at the scripture
Romans 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
This set of scriptures clearly says that until the LAW sin was in the world but sin was not IMPUTED.
Thus if sin was not IMPUTED until Adam broke God’s LAW(commandment) not to eat of the tree then neither was death IMPUTED. Once Adam broke God’s LAW both sin and death was IMPUTED unto him and death by sin entered into the world.
Second: The world that then was spoken of in 2 Peter 3:5-7 was NOT the world Adam was created into, Adam brought sin into OUR WORLD not the world that then was.
As we have just seen that before the flood in Noah’s day that covered the earth there was a flood long before that which overflowed the HEAVEN and EARTH THAT THEN WAS.
So why did God have need overflow the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was?
Because of the angels that sinned and kept not their first estate.
2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jude 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
According to the book of Revelation there was a war in HEAVEN and the OLD SERPENT called the DEVIL was cast out along with his ANGELS into the EARTH.
Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
What was the reason for this war?
According to Is. And Eze. It was because Satan wanted to exalt himself and be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Ezekiel 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Now I know some see these scriptures as referring to Satan, some to man(Adam) and some to the antichrist.
For myself I believe it is referring to all 3, there are layers to scripture and each layer holds the truth. Just read what the scriptures state about the antichrist and then compare those scriptures to these ones and you will see how these scriptures have reference to him.
Then read what the scriptures state about man (Adam) and you will see how these scriptures have reference to him. And just as they have reference to both man (Adam) and the antichrist they also have if you read about Satan reference to him. It is layer upon layer upon layer.
The problem with most people is that they see one layer and believe that it is the only layer there is, but you don’t often find gold lying upon the earth, you have to mine for it.
Now many here are probably saying eek gad he believes in the Lucifer myth, but whether you believe Lucifer is in reference to satan or not does not take away from the fact that scriptures tell us that angels sinned and kept not their first estate. Moreover, scripture also tells us satan and his angels were cast into the earth.
We also have an account of this happening in the first book of Enoch, which goes into greater detail about satan and his angels. Now I know not many believe the book of Enoch is scripture, mostly because those who put the bible together did not see fit to add it. However, that does not mean it is not scripture.
Here are a few points as to why I believe it to be scripture.
--Jude quotes a prophesy out of the book of Enoch
--Enoch is a far older manuscript than any other books of scripture
--Man put together the 66 books we have our bible today, leaving out some books, and adding others. If people do a search of what books were not deemed scriptural in the early church they would see that the early church was suspect of the book of Revelations as well as some of the other books we have in our bible today. In addition, many of the early church fathers used the first book of Enoch, quoting it as scripture.
Thus Satan and his angels were cast into the earth and then HEAVENS and EARTH THAT THEN WAS were overflowed with water.
Now some might ask if Satan and his angels were overflowed with water why are they here in OUR world?
Herein is one of those layers to scripture I spoke on earlier. Lucifer is in reference to Satan and man and the reason why is because in the earth that then was Satan was a MAN. That does not mean he was a MAN such as we are, but is different from us in the same way the angelic are MEN yet differ from us. Man was made a little lower than the angelic.
I already know many are shaking their heads at this and probably thinking I am nuts, but all through scripture angels are referred to as MEN.
Revelation 21:17
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
We all know of the story of Sodom and Gomorra and how 3 MEN met Abraham and how 2 of those MEN went into that city and the scriptures tell us those 2 MEN were ANGELS. Gen. chapters 18 and 19
Now some might say ok I have a point but that does not explain why Satan is here in OUR world.
The reason being is he is now a SPIRIT, just as the waters that overflowed in the days of Noah did not destroy MANS SPIRIT just MANS body so to in the flood that overflowed the earth that then was.
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Thus the body was dead but the SPIRIT lives on.
For a clearer understanding of this look again of what it says in Isaiah and what happened to Lucifer. Scripture states that he would be cast down to HELL.
HELL here is SHEOL in the Hebrew and HADES in the Greek and means the place of the DEAD or dwelling place of the DEAD.
Yet in Revelations it say Satan is cast into the EARTH thus making HELL (SHEOL/HADES) here on EARTH.
Think about what God said would happen to Adam if he ate from the tree, God said Adam would DIE in the DAY he ate from it.
So what happened to Adam on the DAY he ate?
He was cast out of the garden into HELL (SHEOL/HADES) and as ALL die in Adam ALL are in the place of the DEAD which is HELL (SHEOL/HADES).
Proverbs 15:24 says
24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Deuteronomy 32:22 says
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
These scripture are clear testimony that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the EARTH we live in, for how else can the fire that burns into the lowest HELL consume the EARTH.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Ever wonder why the everlasting fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels and nothing is said about it being prepared for mankind?
It because this EARTH (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) was not PREPARED for man, the GARDEN was /is to be our dwelling place.
Remember HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the dwelling place of the DEAD.
Now read
Ephesians 2:1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
It is clear from these scriptures that those who walk according to the course of THIS WORLD are DEAD in trespasses and sin, and that Jesus came to give us LIFE that we may sit with Him in HEAVENLY PLACES. Thus Jesus came to save us OUT OF HELL.
So then now that we have seen that the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was, was overflowed with water, that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is this EARTHLY REALM and that Satan dwells in this prison house as SPIRIT we can gain some insight to why Gen.1:2 says the EARTH BECAME WITHOUT FORM and the reason why God RECREATED the EARTH and placed MAN into it.
Satan is now a SPIRIT and is the god and prince of this world
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
And is why scripture tells us that when we walked according to the course of this world
We walked according to the prince of the power of the air, that SPIRIT that worketh in the children of disobedience.
Ephesians 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
This world is not God world but Satan’s and he is king in it and when Adam disobeyed God Adam entered into Satan’s world, the dwelling place of the DEAD.
This is seen in that Jesus states
John 8:23
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Jesus is NOT of this WORLD and is why the prince of this WORLD has nothing in Him.
Jesus also states
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus KINGDOM is NOT of this WORLD, and this can be seen in Jesus temptation of the DEVIL.
Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
It is obvious that for one to give something away one must be in possession of that which one gives away. Thus the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD belong to Satan.
We all know of the Greek mythology of HADES and how he is the ruler of his domain, did you ever wonder were this mythology came from?
It is not just something the Greek made up, it comes from the truth and like all of Satan’s tricks he corrupted the truth within mythology so man cannot discern fact from fiction.
There is truth in all mythology but it is covered up in mythology so that we cannot see the truth for the mythology, kind of like we can’t see the forest for all the trees.
I watched a program on TV awhile back and etched in the stones of the days of the Pharaohs when Israel was held captive was a story written about a man god who came to earth and died and rose again, it basically followed the story of Jesus, but was of Egyptian origin and this man god was of the Egyptians. The program was used to say the Christian of today believe in one of the myths of the Egyptians. That we took this myth that was written thousands of years before Christ and made up our own myths to support our religion.
So were did the Egyptians thousands of years before Christ came come up with this myth that so resembles the truth found in Christ?
The answer can be found in that Israel was a captive of Egypt and the Egyptians more then likely after reading their scriptures much as did the Romans in the day of Christ understood in part a truth written in them, or more likely thought to themselves that these Israelites have a better sounding God then the ones we serves so let’s make up our own version of their God and put it before the people. Thus taking the truth found in scripture and corrupting it.
So then we can see that Satan the ruler of this world.
So why would God create man from the dust of this world, which is the dust of the dead.
This is the age-old question: WHY did God make MAN.
The answer is not what you likely think it is.
God created MAN for the salvation of the ANGELIC.
Just as God sent Jesus into this world (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) to save man, Jesus sends forth His body (the church) to make known the fellowship of the mystery, which mystery is the salvation of the whole kosmos, which was God intent from the BEGININNG, to the principalities and powers in heavenly places.
Ephesians 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
This is seen more fully when we see that kingdoms of THIS WORLD which belong to Satan become the kingdoms of our LORD.
Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
What! know ye not that we shall judge angels? 1Co.6:3
Man simply does not realise his full potential in Christ, for Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Corinthians 2:9
Hi pneuma,
I am studying the Restitution of All Things, currently, so I am not quite sure where I stand at the moment on these issues. I don't usually listen too much when a poster is too intense and unyielding in their views, demanding that they, and only they know something. It comes off as arrogant, and nobody knows anything 100%!! That kind of behavior irritates me a bit, but I like your style, so I am paying attention.
Anyway, the angelic conflict is something I am very interested in for a number of reasons, none of which I can explain very well right now. I am quite certain that there is something kooky going on, which makes me mad much of the time. I like to keep things simple; I like to garden, to sit out in the sun, to smell the flowers and hear the birds chirping and such. But, unfortunately, my life has been a little too strange to just block whatever is going on, out.
My dad would say little things here and there that kind of startled me, such as, "Do you know who rules this world?" "Do you know Hitler will bow?" He was always saying little things here and there when we talked (he was always on edge, so it wasn't really talking, more like yelling) and I would get so frustrated.
My mom and dad fought like cats and dogs and, as I got older, it became really intense. The whole family split apart and is not really talking to each other any longer, and my mom just died last week; she seemed to be trying to tell me something before she died but was not able to get any words out. Nobody can get a hold of my dad (and he had a stroke weeks after I visited him last, anyway) so I am without any info these days. I used to get quite a bit from my parents.
Most Christians seem quite lost as to what is really going on or seem to have pieces here and there but not the whole, and I don't talk much to others these days. One of the last things my dad told me to do was to start studying the Restitution of All Things, which I ignored. When I finally started looking into it (I had kind of given up on Traditional Christianity because of all the nonsense and corruption) I started seeing things around me a little differently, or maybe a lot differently. Hundreds of little things that my parents had talked about when I was little have started making sense, barely. I am still a bit in the dark, but a lot has happened to me, strange and bizarre things, and I don't have a doubt that something is going on in a realm that we cannot see. What I am confused about is how the humans fit in and what the spirit realm is supposed to be learning exactly.
I asked the question not too long ago about the verse that talks about God reconciling things in HEAVEN and earth at the end of all things. (I have seen some pretty stupid commentary on that)
What is supposed to be reconciled from the heavens?
Revelation 5:13 has become my favorite verse these days.
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
I know that not everyone has all the answers; everybody has a piece of the puzzle, and I appreciate you being here and trying to explain your understanding of things. If things get too weird, though, I'll probably disappear into the background.
(Sven, another poster on this forum, has studied Enoch and discounts it as being biblical. Well, at least parts of it, I think. I would tend to agree with him for a number of reasons, but I will keep looking.)
Last edited by herefornow; 05-12-2010 at 03:22 PM..
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The earth that then was
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 
