Universalism defended and correspondences on the subject
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You can take it how you like. I stated a fact, and it stands.
You said UR has nothing to offer, but of course you were just bickering over the word 'offer'. I was only asking you if you understood that I said, I didn't ask you what you said. I already know what you said.
You said UR has nothing to offer, but of course you were just bickering over the word 'offer'. I was only asking you if you understood that I said, I didn't ask you what you said. I already know what you said.
There is no bickering when it is not about an offer in the first place.
An interesting point is that God is sovereign, and ultimately doesn't "offer" anything:
Creation, depravity of man, Calvary, and His will that all are encompassed within His plan are not alternative in nature: they were/are/will be done without our consent/permission.
An interesting point is that God is sovereign, and ultimately doesn't "offer" anything:
Creation, depravity of man, Calvary, and His will that all are encompassed within His plan are not alternative in nature: they were/are/will be done without our consent/permission.
You guys can bicker all day long about the word "offer" in order to divert the discussion away form the point. If you pretend to not understand how the word "offer" is, or can be used, then that is simply too bad. You are disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing. Most people would understand the meaning.
If someone asks "what does Jesus offer us", a person who understands the question might say "He offers us salvation. Jesus said "I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46). Or one might answer "he offers eternal life. Jesus said "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)".
But no, the UR fans refuse to understand the question and argue over the technical meaning of the word 'offer'. You have just given us a textbook example of the word "BICKER".
Definition of "bicker": quibble: argue over petty things.
You guys can bicker all day long about the word "offer" in order to divert the discussion away form the point. If you pretend to not understand how the word "offer" is, or can be used, then that is simply too bad. You are disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing. Most people would understand the meaning.
If someone asks "what does Jesus offer us", a person who understands the question might say "He offers us salvation. Jesus said "I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46). Or one might answer "he offers eternal life. Jesus said "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)".
But no, the UR fans refuse to understand the question and argue over the technical meaning of the word 'offer'. You have just given us a textbook example of the word "BICKER".
Definition of "bicker": quibble: argue over petty things.
The difference between "offer" or "invite" and God is in control is quite huge... and not petty.. IMO
You believe that there is an offer or invite and one must accept that offer or invite... UR says God is in Control... He does the gathering.
What Calvinism are you talking about? Calvinism uses "TULIP" to explain what it is. The "L" is the opposite of what you just said! And by the way, take out the "L" and you pretty much have Universalism! You might want to give that some thought since you say you're a Calvinist who doesn't believe in limited atonement!
Calvinism's "TULIP" (The simplistic version) T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.
U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.
L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.
I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.
P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.
Sciotamicks, I don't know if you missed this post or chose to ignore it, but I really am interested in your answer. Can you be a Calvinist and not believe in limited atonement? I thought that belief was the main thing that distinguished it from other doctrines.
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