Shouldn't Cincinnati and Dayton be counted as one metro area? (Hamilton: transplants, sales)
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The high speed rail linking SF and LA will cost more than $100 billion......yes that's in billions. Where's the money coming from? The state of California is sacrificing its once stellar education system so Jerry Brown can build his rail line that no one will use. Private investors have avoided it like the plague and the federal government ran away after its initial pledge. The state of California already took Sacramento and San Diego off the grid and it will still cost more than $100 billion.
Where will riders go once they get dropped off in huge sprawling metropolis of LA and SF? They'll have to rent a car or take a cab.....which makes no sense. It's the Vietnam of transportation.....and will drive even more businesses and successful people out of California.
It's a tragedy.
The only tragedy is your apparent lack of understanding of how things actually work in the rest of the world. What do riders do in Europe when they take the train from Barcelona to the "huge sprawling metropolis" of Paris? When they take the train from Amsterdam to the "huge sprawling metropolis" of Munich? Somehow the system works fine there but it won't work in California? OK, then.
And what do you do when you fly somewhere? Assuming you're not staying at the airport hotel, you still have to take a cab or find other transportation. Of course, in cities with rail connecting the airport to downtown (New York, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, etc.), it's not a problem at all. When I was in Seattle last month, I flew into Seatac and took the light rail to downtown where I - GASP - had to walk a couple of blocks. Somehow, I managed to survive without once getting into a car. And it's a good thing I didn't have a car since my hotel (Arctic Club) didn't have anywhere for me to park it for less than $41/day.
Honestly, some of you COASTers really do need to get out more. There is a whole different world beyond the Milford Applebee's.
SF is the second most densely populated in the US city outside of New York City. Most tourists don't venture beyond the super dense areas either. Not only that but the whole region is well connected by transit, run a few routes using this website: Transit.511.org
LA is more sprawled out, but is at the very least aggressively expanding its transit and with some controversy though given the fact that they've literally run out of land, they are increasingly building up - they already are the most densely populated METRO in the US:
SF is the second most densely populated in the US city outside of New York City. Most tourists don't venture beyond the super dense areas either. Not only that but the whole region is well connected by transit, run a few routes using this website: Transit.511.org
LA is more sprawled out, but is at the very least aggressively expanding its transit and with some controversy though given the fact that they've literally run out of land, they are increasingly building up - they already are the most densely populated METRO in the US:
If you don't/won't live in Cincinnati, with all due respect, butt out on the streetcar. The non-resident opposition, hate and vitriol for this project has been nothing sort of oppressive and, frankly, I'm fed up with it. The streetcar passed two - TWO! - votes in the City of Cincinnati, it is supported by residents, businesses and the overwhelming majority of City Council. In addition, the silly Chabot measure in the House won't do a single thing to stop the current construction of the streetcar. That money is already spoken for.
Hi abr7rmj--
By this statement, you're completely missing the point why many non-residents (myself included) are opposed so vehemently to the streetcars. I lived in the Cincinnati area most of my life. I -want- to be able to move to Cincinnati. I would love to be in the middle of things. But the City blowing money on stuff like this - and the taxes they levy to support projects like this - make it impossible for me to live or work in the city. It simply doesn't make economic sense. It doesn't for me, and it doesn't for the 1,000,000+ residents who live in any of the suburban counties that surround Cincinnati (Butler, Warren, Clermont, Boone, Campbell, Kenton).
I want to live in Cincinnati - but not at that price. And until Roxanne Qualls and Mark Mallory get that into their heads, people will continue to vote with their feet - and leave.
If I had no interest in living in Cincinnati, then I wouldn't give two figs about where they spend their money.
By this statement, you're completely missing the point why many non-residents (myself included) are opposed so vehemently to the streetcars. I lived in the Cincinnati area most of my life. I -want- to be able to move to Cincinnati. I would love to be in the middle of things. But the City blowing money on stuff like this - and the taxes they levy to support projects like this - make it impossible for me to live or work in the city. It simply doesn't make economic sense. It doesn't for me, and it doesn't for the 1,000,000+ residents who live in any of the suburban counties that surround Cincinnati (Butler, Warren, Clermont, Boone, Campbell, Kenton).
Why do you want to live in Cincinnati if you don't support something that only helps it be lively and the middle of things? One of the things that makes a city lively is street life, and that is strongest in Cities that have excellent transit. Its why people are so attracted to Chicago, New York, SF etc, because there is always something going on, the streets are always active and full of people. Roads didn't build cities that are like Cincinnati, they build cities that are like Mason or for a bigger example check out Houston. Bringing back a streetcar will help repair the damage done by boneheaded midcentury thinkers and the auto industry/government which colluded to destroy the rail transit we already had in cities and replace it with something vastly inferior.
Finally the money argument looses ground when you realize that your auto expenses (repairs and gasoline) are much lower when you only drive about a thousand miles a year ;-). I'm sure I've made up for the increase in cost of housing/taxes in not using my car living in Chicago particularly with gas prices at astronomical rates these days...
You brought it up and it has no relevance to this thread. And now you want to shy away from it and try to sway the subject back to Cincinnati/Dayton? You continue to call it a boondoggle and you show your extreme ignorance on the subject. I have been lucky at a young age to travel over most of this country and plenty of other nations around the world, what do you know about rail, and what are you experiences with rail? That's a serious question. For instance, I can tell you in Auckland, New Zealand, everyone complained of the traffic problems and the city was having trouble finding money to reduce congestion and figure out how to spend billions expanding the road system. Yet around their rail, they saw heavy investments and developments in the city center and around the rail stations, traffic congestion was not nearly as bad as areas without it. I was in Perth, Australia and I had to find a video of what I experienced. I was riding the train along the Kwinana Freeway and people pointed out they were glad they were not stuck in that, look over and we were flying past the cars. Rail has been successful in just about every single place I have been to. I even pointed out the Gautrain, though, was a mess between Johannesburg and Pretoria. That is South Africa though, and if you have been there, you know they can barely do anything right unless it is Sandton. Everywhere else, rail has its benefits and millions use it. I have rail here in Cleveland, and my car has sat in the driveway for weeks. So in your little world of Cincinnati, you can see there is this narrow minded view of anything new, but yet it has been so successful elsewhere not only in this country, but around the world. Imagine that. Get out a little, open your mind to new ideas, it's amazing how great things can be.
Video of what I experienced in Perth, Western Australia:
I have been to many East Coast cities (Philly, New York, DC) as well across the world (Tokyo, Shanghai) which have enormously successful rail and/or subway lines. And that's due to the level of service that they enjoy and the fact that the rail lines actually take people where they need to go for less inconvenience/cost than it is to drive to the city center.
That simply isn't the case with Cincinnati or any other smaller/midsize Midwestern cities. Neither the streetcar nor the more ambitious MetroMoves project a while back would have made an appreciable dent in traffic congestion. I've already mentioned multiple times why the streetcar would do zero to alleviate traffic congestion. MetroMoves may have worked somewhat, but it was redundant with Metro's bus lines. If you want to fix the traffic tieups on 71/75, you need to get some sort of viable transit option out to Butler/Warren counties. And the capital simply doesn't exist for that - and even then I'm not convinced ridership would ever be high enough to offset the costs.
Fact of the matter is, Cincinnati is and remains tied to the car for transportation, whether we like it or not. And I would love nothing more than to be able to hop on a bus or a train and take it wherever I needed to go. Let me know when a Metro line goes to Jungle Jim's. Or if they open up a lateral line or two so I don't have to go downtown before heading back out on a different line if I'm going from one suburb to another.
It doesn't for me, and it doesn't for the 1,000,000+ residents who live in any of the suburban counties that surround Cincinnati (Butler, Warren, Clermont, Boone, Campbell, Kenton).
What are you, some sort of spokesman for millions of people living in the Cincy Metro? By that logic, should Cincy be governed along your point of view then we should expect an influx of these same millions of people once it is.
Many people in the Cincinnati metro live in small towns and are small town people and want nothing to do with living in the city, and that's cool. But they have no business dabbling in Cincinnati's business and the same goes for you. No one is going to remake the city so you will move back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1
I want to live in Cincinnati - but not at that price. And until Roxanne Qualls and Mark Mallory get that into their heads, people will continue to vote with their feet - and leave.
Are you kidding me? Cincinnati is extremely cheap. And people leaving on account of Mallory and Qualls is simply not the way it is. Ever hear of the foreclosure crisis? Ever hear of factory jobs leaving the midwest? That barely scratches the surface in the multitude of reasons people have left cities all over the US over the years. Pffftt.
If you think Cincinnati is expensive perhaps you should look at how expensive top tier cities really are. And guess what. They are more liberal than Cincinnati, they have more opportunities than Cincinnati, most of them have rail, and there isn't enough housing to fill the need. Manhattan, one of the most expensive areas to live in the US currently has a 1% vacancy rate. Cincinnati is a bargain and if you wanted to live here you would. So stop with the song and dance, it's not working.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1
If I had no interest in living in Cincinnati, then I wouldn't give two figs about where they spend their money.
Just to reiterate, if you wanted to be here you would be.
And for the record. Places like New York attract so many people because there are tons of amenities. Amongst them is affordable and reliable public transit options. Denying Cincinnati more options is keeping this city hopelessly backwards in some respects.
Auckland NZ is smaller than Cincinnati btw, the metro population is 1.4 million as Cincinnati is 2.1 Cincinnati/Dayton is around 2.8 million.
Not only that but Vancouver BC is about the same size as Cincinnati and they have a very successful rail system... what is it about Cincinnati that makes it exceptional at being mediocre again? In my opinion it has the potential to be quite the opposite, but this widely held "mediocre we can't do that in Cincy" holds the region back in so many different ways its not even funny.
In my opinion it has the potential to be quite the opposite, but this widely held "mediocre we can't do that in Cincy" holds the region back in so many different ways its not even funny.
I couldn't agree more. I am not sure if it's an Ohio thing and there is some agenda to keep the status quo from our State Govt. or if Cincinnati is just happy being behind the curve. As someone who is used to a whole lot more from a city, moving back to a top tier city such as New York is an appealing option at times.
Flashes, you are a fool. Both San Francisco and LA have enormous rail transit systems and bus service that blow away what's in Cincinnati. In LA the buses don't even have schedules because they run at no slower than 12 minute headways all day and night. Both LA and San Francisco have rapid transit systems, commuter rail, light rail, and streetcars. There are all kinds of ways to get around in those cities other than by car.
LA has opened 2 or 3 new light rail lines in the last 5 years and has numerous new lines under construction. Meanwhile, they aren't building any new expressways and have no major expressway widenings planned. The future is not cars. The big cities know this but the small-minded in Cincinnati and the shills who con them are living in the 50's.
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