Commuting in the Cincinnati metro area. (Columbus, Cleveland: how much, live, campus)

[ohioaninsc]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Links to what, some self-proclaimed expert telling me what it going to happen? I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do trust my own judgement based on experience and what I perceive is personal preference. And during the majority of my lifetime I have seen people moving to the suburbs and I strongly doubt it is suddenly going to reverse overnight to a significant degree. Yes, the cities are making strides becoming more attractive for people to desire living in their environment, and those desiring that just fine.

I personally want nothing to do with a high density concrete jungle, but that is my preference, same as you don't like the suburban aura. But guess what, the suburban environment is still way ahead, and I believe it is going to stay ahead indefinitely.

I don't need an expert to tell me the western neighborhoods of Cincinnati have been suffering. My first clue is virtually all of my family have left there. The few remaining like my son admit they are really becoming concerned and wondering whether to skedaddle. These are real life people and what they see happening about them.

Just go out and drive around in College Hill, Mt Airy, Colerain, Mt Healthy and even Forest Park and tell me they are not deteriorating. Then go closer in into Westwood and Bridgetown, before you ever get close to Price Hill. When I was younger I had many family relatives who lived in these areas. Today I have virtually none as they and their descendants have all fled. That is the big difference I see. These neighborhoods used to have generations of the same family. Now the descendants are just picking up and leaving. Just where do you think they are going?

When the cost to drive and own cars becomes too prohibitive (gasoline will continue to go up...sooner or later will equal the cost of Europe, $8+ a gallon, most people are not going to be able to afford to live in the suburbs and work in the city, and will be forced out of necessity to move back to the city center...unless they are the fortunate few who can work from home)...
Plus, the younger generations are the ones that seem to be moving back to the cities...look at who lives in OTR, The Banks, and other downtown condos and apts...its a lot of younger professionals, even younger married couples...if they like living in the city, they aren't going to all of sudden want to move out into the land of cookie cutter houses and long drives to get anywhere....the suburbs will remain ahead of the cities for awhile but they're not going to remain that way long term at the current rates.

[ohioaninsc]

I believe Cleveland and Akron is a combined CSA, I'm surprised Cincy and Dayton aren't already one...I don't think the distance is that much further between the 2 cities.

[natininja]

Originally Posted by ohioaninsc

When the cost to drive and own cars becomes too prohibitive (gasoline will continue to go up...sooner or later will equal the cost of Europe, $8+ a gallon, most people are not going to be able to afford to live in the suburbs and work in the city, and will be forced out of necessity to move back to the city center...unless they are the fortunate few who can work from home)...
Plus, the younger generations are the ones that seem to be moving back to the cities...look at who lives in OTR, The Banks, and other downtown condos and apts...its a lot of younger professionals, even younger married couples...if they like living in the city, they aren't going to all of sudden want to move out into the land of cookie cutter houses and long drives to get anywhere....the suburbs will remain ahead of the cities for awhile but they're not going to remain that way long term at the current rates.

Or, alternatively, people will live in the suburb they work (something Brill advocates). When I mentioned suburbs being redesigned in a New Urbanist image, this is along the lines of what I was thinking. Making suburbs more walkable and transit-oriented. That way, you can have suburban life without being hit really hard by bloated oil prices. Some people argue this style of development is more sustainable than returning to cities, because there is more room to put in renewable energy infrastructure immediately adjacent to where it's used (transporting and storing energy is very wasteful, at least with modern tech). It helps to solve the problem of aggressively expanding infrastructure while less quickly expanding population to pay for the infrastructure. <- A proposition which sounds "conservative" and "fiscally responsible" to me, but "collectivist" to people who don't understand infrastructure costs have become a form of entitlement spending.

Cue "Agenda 21" conspiracy theorist...

[unusualfire]

Originally Posted by ohioaninsc

When the cost to drive and own cars becomes too prohibitive (gasoline will continue to go up...sooner or later will equal the cost of Europe, $8+ a gallon, most people are not going to be able to afford to live in the suburbs and work in the city, and will be forced out of necessity to move back to the city center...unless they are the fortunate few who can work from home)...
Plus, the younger generations are the ones that seem to be moving back to the cities...look at who lives in OTR, The Banks, and other downtown condos and apts...its a lot of younger professionals, even younger married couples...if they like living in the city, they aren't going to all of sudden want to move out into the land of cookie cutter houses and long drives to get anywhere....the suburbs will remain ahead of the cities for awhile but they're not going to remain that way long term at the current rates.

That's why this region should have built rail lines YEARS ago. When gas hits $8 a gallon people will flock to live near a station. Honestly I would hope people start to think when it's closing in on $5 a gallon.

People just don't understand that the longer you wait the MORE it will cost to build.

[Briolat21]

Originally Posted by natininja

Or, alternatively, people will live in the suburb they work (something Brill advocates). When I mentioned suburbs being redesigned in a New Urbanist image, this is along the lines of what I was thinking. Making suburbs more walkable and transit-oriented. That way, you can have suburban life without being hit really hard by bloated oil prices. Some people argue this style of development is more sustainable than returning to cities, because there is more room to put in renewable energy infrastructure immediately adjacent to where it's used (transporting and storing energy is very wasteful, at least with modern tech). It helps to solve the problem of aggressively expanding infrastructure while less quickly expanding population to pay for the infrastructure. <- A proposition which sounds "conservative" and "fiscally responsible" to me, but "collectivist" to people who don't understand infrastructure costs have become a form of entitlement spending.

Cue "Agenda 21" conspiracy theorist...

Props for bringing in the Agenda 21 reference!

I would love it suburbs were more interconnected to the city (through bus or whatever other means), and would have no issues with suburbs being more thoughtfully planned out or re-imagined.

I don't think all suburbanites are opposed to being thoughtful about resource usage, they may just have a different scale of "cost vs. benefit" than the uber-green. For instance would we pay a premium for a fuel efficient vehicle if it was within our cost range? Yes. Would I voluntarily move to be within walking distance of work? No.

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by ohioaninsc

I believe Cleveland and Akron is a combined CSA, I'm surprised Cincy and Dayton aren't already one...I don't think the distance is that much further between the 2 cities.

Akron's CBD to Cleveland's CBD is about 25 or 30 miles. Cincy's CBD to Dayton's CBD as the crow flies is 50 miles, by I-75 is 54 miles.

[unusualfire]

25 miles? I highly doubt that. From Cincinnati to Mason is 25 miles. Either way the distances are not the issue. It's commuter exchange rates. There is a place in Sacramento's CSA that over 100 miles from Sacramento CBD. Truckee. And the newest large CSA is Orlando Daytona. They are about 70 miles apart.

[SWOH]

Checking on the site below gave me a total of 29 miles. Mapquest gave me 34 miles as the shortest driving distance, 32 miles as the shortest waling distance.

http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-go...calculator.htm

[pontiac51]

Originally Posted by OHKID

Akron's CBD to Cleveland's CBD is about 25 or 30 miles. Cincy's CBD to Dayton's CBD as the crow flies is 50 miles, by I-75 is 54 miles.

Furthermore, Akron is in an adjacent county to Cuyahoga County. This is why Cleveland/Akron should already be an MSA. Dayton is two counties away from Cincinnati.

[unusualfire]

^No, because it defined by commuting patterns not county boundaries. If that was the case Dayton could stake claim to Butler and Warren counties.