Country Clubs & Semi Private Golf Courses (Cincinnati, Dayton: houses, to buy)

[veetzvino]

I was curious if anyone could give me a breakdown of what some of the most enjoyable courses in the city are, and what they are like. I'm curious about country clubs and or courses that offer memberships but are open to the public. I'd like to know what courses are really fun, what the people are like, and what the atmosphere is like. I really know nothing of the courses closer to downtown. I'm guessing I would probably be on the east side. I lived in Mason before so I was more familiar with the courses up there.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

[kjbrill]

Golf Courses are all about in the same boat today - struggling. I don't know of any which are not.

You mentioned being more familiar with courses near Mason. I assume Shaker Run near Lebanon would be one of those. The main course was originally built by Armco Steel to rival the NCR courses in Dayton. And Shaker was a first class operation. But as Armco has fallen on hard times, so has the golf course. It has changed ownership multiple times and in my opinion is a ghost of its former glorious self. It is not private and I don't believe has much of a chance of becoming same. The property adjacent to the course, which also houses a short par-3/4 course was recently deeded to Warren Co as a public park area. This is all part of Armoco wanting to divorce itself from any public obligations.

The Wetherington Golf Club west of I-75 in Butler Co. is holding its own. It is a private club and appears to be weathering the current storm. The Heritage Club in Mason is at the top of the private prestige list, and seems to be holding its own. Four Bridges just west across Warren-Butler Co Rd in Butler Co is also holding up well.

Once you get past the few private courses in the area, all bets are off.

The golf course business in Cincinnati is just like the rest of the country, it stinks. It seems like at least one course a year gives up and folds. I believe several more would do so except for the fact no one is standing in line to buy their land for subdivisions.

[veetzvino]

Yes, the courses you mentioned to the north are the ones I know. However I might be moving back to the area and what to know more about the ones on the east side, closer to Downtown. That would probably be the area I would be targeting to live and I don't know anything about those courses.

[kjbrill]

When you say closer to Downtown I am not sure how close. There are a series of older country clubs in the Hyde Park area which have been there forever.

If by east side you are speaking of outside the city suburbs such as Blue Ash, Montgomery, Madeira, Mariemont, Terrace Park, etc. the number of private clubs drops off considerably. Kenwood County Club in Madeira (annexed from Kenwood) would get my vote as the most desirable place to spend a lot of time. Terrace Park County Club has been around forever and is considered a family oriented place. I have never heard golfers rave about the course though.

I have intentionally left out such places as Camargo Club in Indian Hill, perhaps the best conditioned and most exclusive in the area. It just reeks with old money and you must be extended an invitation to join. I also tend to believe the statement they do not have a fixed yearly fee but simply add up the expenses at the end of the year and send the members a bill.

Ironically, some of the most playable public courses are on the east side. The City of Blue Ash built and operates the Blue Ash Golf Course, a well conditioned and challenging venue to play. With the bunch of retirees I associate with it is always on our to play list.

Also close by are the Hamilton Co Park District courses such as Sharon Woods and Winton Woods in what I call central Cincinnati, and Miami Whitewater Forest, WAY OUT West in Harrison. The Hamilton Co Park District has some very challenging courses, mostly carved out of wooded terrain through hills. The course conditions will vary depending on the vagaries of the season. My son is the Civil Engineer for the Hamilton Co Park District. The district occupies 12,000 acres of land and is divided into 12 distinct individual parks, one of the largest such complexes in the country. I almost forgot the Vineyard Course, on the east side almost to I-275.

Looking a little further east is the Stonelick Hills Golf Club out near Batavia. It is a privately owned public play facility. My golfing cronies all rave about it. I have yet to make the venture, a combination of distance and cost. Again looking east you will find Legendary Run, a less demanding course but one with amenities. To enjoy golf on the east side of Cincinnati be prepared to travel some distance out into Clermont Co.

[kjbrill]

After reviewing your comments and criteria, I am prone to go back to Kenwood Country Club. It is a large club situated on 432 acres. There are two 18-hole golf courses, both regulation distance. There are also a number of racket courts, clay and hard tennis, a heated olympic size pool, plus a variety of other amenities and activities. I remember as a kid growing up in adjacent Madeira people commenting about the excellent dining facilities at Kenwood. Back then the club was just in an unincorporated area called Kenwood. Since then a large portion of the Kenwood area has been annexed to the City of Madeira. When I consider the other options I can understand why they chose Madeira.

[Wilson513]

Although I am not a golfer or a joiner, I am aware that Kenwood is the most expensive club and also among the hardest to join. Are you really recommending it? there used to be a $50,000 fee to join with a $500 or $1000 monthly minimum at the restaurant. Is that in the cards here?

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Although I am not a golfer or a joiner, I am aware that Kenwood is the most expensive club and also among the hardest to join. Are you really recommending it? there used to be a $50,000 fee to join with a $500 or $1000 monthly minimum at the restaurant. Is that in the cards here?

Not my knowledge, maybe several decades ago. Camargo is without a doubt the most expensive and difficult to join. Kenwood is an OK but not great golf venue. To keep those 36 holes occupied they need a lot of members. Ultra sophisticated clubs usually do not advertise constantly for members, Kenwood does. Look at their website, they heavily push the fact they are a family friendly operation. Now I could believe the type of fees you indicate at Coldstream Country Club in previous times but today initiation is $25,000 and annual dues $8,000.

The entire golf industry was transformed financially by the changes in the US Government allowances for business expenses. This affected both private and public operations. The Golf Center at Kings Island in Mason was a very well conditioned course occupied primarily by business people entertaining clients. The same was true of Shaker Run near Lebanon. Both had beautiful courses demanding high greens fees. With the tax law changes this business driven clientele disappeared. Both courses today are a far cry from the conditioning they used to receive. As public play venues they are among the most visible examples.

But the private club segment was not immune. Fees were reduced and the level of course conditioning reduced. The idea of private clubs permitting play for a fee was born, just another idea of how to keep the doors open.

[flashes1]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Although I am not a golfer or a joiner, I am aware that Kenwood is the most expensive club and also among the hardest to join. Are you really recommending it? there used to be a $50,000 fee to join with a $500 or $1000 monthly minimum at the restaurant. Is that in the cards here?

The membership fee has gone down a lot since 2008. I think it's closer to $25K for a full membership, but social memberships are much less. A couple of my wife's co-workers have gotten social memberships in the past couple years, so I think it's a lot easier to join than it used to when Carl and his top lieutenants ran the place. If my wife's friends joined, it must be kid friendly.

Heritage Club in Mason has a ton of kids activities....few people would belong if they didn't.

[flashes1]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

The entire golf industry was transformed financially by the changes in the US Government allowances for business expenses. This affected both private and public operations. The Golf Center at Kings Island in Mason was a very well conditioned course occupied primarily by business people entertaining clients. The same was true of Shaker Run near Lebanon. Both had beautiful courses demanding high greens fees. With the tax law changes this business driven clientele disappeared.

I think golf has lost its popularity for a couple other reasons: 1) dads are lot more involved with their kids' lives (I'd feel too guilty leaving the kids on a Saturday for 5 hrs so I could play golf----number 1, my wife works full time---so not fair to her---and number 2, I'm out there working my kid out hard---actively throwing the ball, hitting grounders, etc----when I was a kid---we played with other kids----today the Dads who used to golf all day are the ones playing outside with the kids----not sure if this is better-----it's just the way it is), and 2) the Millenials aka kids in their 20's and early 30's have attention spans of a gnat---no way are they going to walk around outside on a golf course for 4 hrs----they'd rather sit in a coffee shop or Chipotle and play on their phones.

Plus, a lot less business is done on a golf course nowadays------business people just don't have the time. Business is mostly done via email and conference calls and an occaisional lunch.

[veetzvino]

I would say 25k upfront would be too much for me for sure. I know a lot of these courses do deals nowadays to get more members. I'm not sure how high I would go on an annual fee. A few moving parts on that. I'm not really an "exclusive club" type person but more a family friendly, younger crowd, that has a solid course. That is why I see the benefit to places like stone lick. Awesome course and the membership rate is just an annual fee. I lived next to Hermitage club and Four Bridges, and Four Bridges always gave off a younger, fun type vibe. Shaker Run is where I always played. Love the course, but agree, late summer it could become very beat up. It's a shame because I see how that course was probably a gem.

Thanks for all the great information. I guess that's what I wanted to hear about, what all these courses and clubs were like. How the golf was, how the members were, what type of price ranges they were in.