Crossroads Moving into Old St George (Cincinnati, Mason: best, money, metro)

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by t45209

Sarah, while it's true that many churches of various denominations have seen a drop off in attendance, that's not the sole reason for these buildings going unused. Often it's the fact that populations have shifted and that the neighborhoods that these churches once served no longer exist in any viable fashion. This is certainly true of downtown and many of the older inner ring neighborhoods. Perhaps no neighborhood demonstrates what impact loss of residential fabric and changing demographics can have on churches than Walnut Hills. Just see the ruins of Presbyterian and the abandoned Catholic churches on Gilbert, not to mention a number of other churches that have long since met the wrecking ball. Walnut Hills shed thousands of residents between the construction of I-71 and the civil unrest of the 1960s. This clearly impacted the ability of many of these congregations to survive, and the buildings that housed them no longer served any practical purpose.

Yes, very good points. Clearly, reuse as churches or adaptive reuse is far and away the preferred outcome, but there are so many functionally obsolete and beautiful religious structures they can't practically be saved even when there's the will to. I wish we had more examples like Plum Street Temple--owned, preserved and maintained by a suburban congregation. But I realize that's not realistic.

[Wilson513]

The archdiocese closes and moves churches all the time. The Assumption church on Gilbert was a small, unattractive building with a depleted congregation. The Archdiocese sold it to some orgaonization for a dollar and they are supposedly doing something with it.

The Presbyterian church at Gilbert and WMHT was a beautiful building. But blame the Presbytery for its failure. They missed the boat. They should have rescued it, but ignored the opportunity. If it had been CR it would not have gotten the wrecking ball.

[t45209]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The archdiocese closes and moves churches all the time. The Assumption church on Gilbert was a small, unattractive building with a depleted congregation. The Archdiocese sold it to some orgaonization for a dollar and they are supposedly doing something with it.

The Presbyterian church at Gilbert and WMHT was a beautiful building. But blame the Presbytery for its failure. They missed the boat. They should have rescued it, but ignored the opportunity. If it had been CR it would not have gotten the wrecking ball.

Sort of.

The Archdiocese would keep open any church that was "profitable". Assumption was no longer profitable, along with many of the other parishes that have been closed and consolidated over the years.

Assumption was actually sold again a few years ago to an individual for a price of around $250,000. The guy who bought it worried that it was going to be torn down and so he literally bought it to save it. I think he saw the handwriting on the wall when the rectory next door was torn down. (The backstory on the rectory is that there was a family living in it and the kids tested high for lead. Instead of doing the rational thing, in my opinion, by slapping a coat of paint on things and selling the place, they brought in salvagers like Wooden Nickel to strip the house and then had it demolished). The current owner of Assumption is not from Cincinnati, but clearly has a soft spot for our historic architecture. He's something of an artist, and is using the church as a studio to create mannequins (a surprisingly lost art, apparently).

The Presbytery did fail on their church, but there's more to that story as well. While the funeral home was really pushing to demo the church to create more parking (the funeral home owner was quite vocal in his lack of appreciation for the architecture), as it turns out, this is a building that could have been saved. Those close that situation will tell you that the cost of demo on that building turned out to be more than what it would have cost to buy it and preserve it (at least in the near term). What we have today are the ruins of the steeple which stands as a gaunt reminder of how shortsighted we are about these things. The only positive to this story is that at least the organ was carefully removed and reinstalled at another Presbyterian church.

[Wilson513]

Funeral parlors are a dying business.

[Larry Bourgeois]

As former Director of Old St George I have spent the last decade trying to remain optimistic about Old St George surviving. I find it absolutely amazing that Crossroads would take the project on and commit to raising a realistic $11 million budget to do it right. Over the 12 years I was involved at Old St George (1992-2004) I met thousands of people who really loved the building and the programs that did that were in many ways the kinds of things that "Classic Cathedrals" and "innovative monasteries" did. We also established the "Espresso Guild" and the first wave of the espresso and gourmet coffee movement in Cincinnati, and had 15,000 books there, and a TV Studio. So, we did lots of things to "modernize" the building without taking away from its historic beauty.

The cost of doing the building WELL is 20 times what we spent (a half million) and it takes commitment and a deep respect for history, tradition and architecture to source that kind of capacity. I was part of Crossroads since the first day that they met in a school in Hyde Park and I have known many of its staff and musicians and members, and I deeply respect their dedication and spiritual entrepreneurism. I have also spent the past 24 years of my life in Cincinnati (moving here from Palo Alto, CA) doing social/spiritual entrepreneurism. In that time I have met a lot of people who are "architectural purists" at other people's expense (that's a polite way of saying it). In world class cities (I think of London and Paris as examples) you have ancient and future designs and building technologies inhabiting neighborhoods side by side (because of tragic destruction like warfare and fires..."Phoenix events" as my son Matthew (who is director of Clifton Heights Community Urban Redevelopment referred to in the recent newcasts).

I started a bookstore / coffeehouse in Silicon Valley 30 years ago called "Phoenix Books and Espresso Cafe)... and it won all kinds of awards for best espresso, best after hours cafe, best music/arts venue... etc. It later became a high end "Steakhouse" because that was the highest and best "market use" of the property! I learned from that experience how "money talks and ...walks" I would like to affirm Crossroads for putting their money where their mouths are and for committing to bringing some timely restoration and hope to a great historic and spiritual property.

[Sarah Perry]

Wow, Larry, thanks for weighing in. I think there are few religious institutions in town which have the size and financial resources to take on a project of this magnitude. For that reason if no other, I do think Crossroads is to be commended, even though I have misgivings about how architecturally sensitive their renovation will be.

I do have one question: what is social/spiritual entrepreneurism?

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

Wow, Larry, thanks for weighing in. I think there are few religious institutions in town which have the size and financial resources to take on a project of this magnitude. For that reason if no other, I do think Crossroads is to be commended, even though I have misgivings about how architecturally sensitive their renovation will be.

I do have one question: what is social/spiritual entrepreneurism?

Sarah I am surprised to see Crossroads make a commitment like that so let's see how it goes. They are growing like mad. They just opened a church on Reading Rd in Mason which was an old manufacturing plant, I don't remember the name of the company but believe they made cardboard boxes. Crossroads was holding services in the Mason Middle School while they did the conversion. They spruced it up quite a bit, sure a lot better than an empty building. From the size of the parking lot it will hold a lot of people.

I gave up on the church I was born into, Catholic. I felt they just ambled along like nothing ever changes. But when they tried to bury the huge scandal from sexual abuse of boys by priests I said I'm out of here. I always did think the so-called celibate life of priests was more than a little strange, but when all of that came out it was more than I could tolerate.

[jlawrence01]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

I've seen it, too, and I don't like it either. However, had the leadership and congregations of these beautiful old churches and their governing denominations not FAILED to maintain the broad appeal they once had, they wouldn't be in the moribund circumstances they are in now. Despite my personal preferences, I have to stop short of painting megachurches like Crossroads with the broad brush of "pseudo congregations" and "Christian Right front organizations" just based on their size and worship style. Some are, undoubtedly, but the mega-churches don't have a monopoly on the political qualities you find so objectionable. Trust me...this is an arena I have plenty of first-hand experience with.

It is very hard to maintain a congregation when the University has pretty much purchased and demolished well over 75% of its neighborhood.

[Misfit Toy]

I know that in 20-years-behind-the-times Cincinnati, it can seem threatening to have church like Crossroads take over the old St. George. But please know, the old St. George is now in very good hands, though I am admittedly biased as a member of Crossroads.

If one of the "mainstream" churches in Cincinnati had the means and the will to take on this project, they would have done so by now.

Crossroads, on the other hand, has a risk-taking spirit that is sorely lacking in most parts of our fair metro region. Yes, I know that their current stock of square box arenas may not inspire much confidence in a project like this. But would you prefer old St. George sit empty as yet another symbol of urban blight?

If you all have a church that works well for you, by all means please keep doing what works for you. As for me, I just know if I'm going to a church that receives both a ton of praise and a ton of criticism...I'm exactly where I need to be.

[flashes1]

500 guys at the Mason Crossroads mens' retreat last weekend. 500 on the waiting list. I'm not a member, but they're doing something right. My in-laws know the lead pastor from his youth----sounds like he's matured and grown into a fine fellow. A little liberal for their tastes, but seemingly everything else is okay.