Cincinnati MSA grows

[wrightflyer]

Originally Posted by PerryMason614

@WILWRadio - I was thinking about other ways in which markets are distinguished from one another and, at least in Ohio, the patterns that define markets do follow DMA's pretty well.

-These brands have/had high market share in Cincinnati, but not in Dayton: US Bank, Kroger, LaRosa's, Macy's, Pogues-Ayres, Van Leunens, JCPenney, Biggs, Albers, Sohio, Remke, HQ, Makro, Zayre, Dillard's ...

-These brands have/had high market share/notoriety in Dayton, but not in Cincinnati: Dayton - Chase Bank (leftover goodwill from Winters National Bank), Dororthy Lane Market, Cassano's, Stumps, Von Maur, Elder-Beerman, Liberal Markets, Speedway ...

Kroger kind of has a weak representation in Dayton, in my opinion, and no Menards, no Dillard's!

-These brands have/had high market share/notoriety in Columbus and because Columbus covers a lot of small towns, this strong representation carries over throughout the entire Columbus DMA and into West Virginia: Chase Bank, Huntington Banks, Big Bear/Giant Eagle, Schottenstein's/Value City, Marshall Field's, Lazarus, Tempo and Buckeye Mart, Von Maur, Donato's, Kaufmann's, Kroger, Speedway, Lord and Taylor, The Anderson's, Hechinger, BJ's, Turkey Hill (Kroger), Menards ...

Kroger is very strong in the Columbus and Toledo regions. There are no Turkey Hill stores in either Cincinnati or Dayton, but a few of them in Indianapolis. No Dillards in Columbus

-In Lima, Macy's is there because of Lazarus (Elder-Beerman couldn't compete and closed), as is Chase Bank and Huntington ..... BUT NO KROGER!

-In Toledo, they had Food Town, The Lion, Macy's, Kroger, The Andersons, Hudson's ...


Notice how each of the DMAs have different brands that are popular? Especially Dayton and Cincinnati?

My point being that a lot of this is driven by media and the fact that you see different companies doing business in each area is pretty good evidence that these are separate areas.

First, 2 cents on the thread topic...

I'm happy Cincinnati's metro is growing. But the biggest divider between Cincinnati and Columbus is the geography. Both on micro and macro levels. Suburbs and neighborhoods are hemmed in by the hills and valleys of Cincinnati's river basis. Then there is the different states and the river with its limited bridges outside downtown. Even the Kentucky side of the river can be compartmentalized due to the hills and valleys. It doesn't start to have the border-less sprawl that bleeds freely between suburbs until you get into Butler and Warren Counties. That continues even now into the southern reaches of Montgomery County as development finishes out on the far southern side of Centerville and Washington Township. Columbus, meanwhile, has the advantage of appearing spread out. Development can be less dense due to lack of physical obstacles and confines. It also can allow easier spreading of commuting patterns because of the flat lands around the region (Hocking being a possible but certainly not central to the metro exception). Highways can branch out in the direction of the four compass points and in between (N,S,E,W and NW,NE,SE,SW).

Now for the quoted section...

This analysis is flawed. Retailers and restaurants don't reside in metros for the reasons you mentioned. They are there because of a targeted customer base, competitive advantage and location of DCs / corporate HQ. I think the metro TV market isn't as big of a consideration and might just be more coincidental than anything.

US Bank is in Dayton. Kroger is most definitely the dominate grocer in Dayton's metro (tell me who the other is and then we can talk...). LaRosa's Pizza has Dayton restaurants. There are Macy's at two of the three major malls in Dayton (3-4 in Dayton but 7-8 in Cincinnati, due to size of area, its geography such as the Ohio River and Mill Creek and population numbers). JC Penny is in Dayton (same two malls). Menard's has locations in the northern Dayton reaches.

I will admit Remke-Biggs is not in Dayton, but I don't see them outside of Cincinnati. Even Giant Eagle, Pittsburgh's home grocer, is bigger and covers other metros (i.e. Columbus).

Some of those brands, such as Sohio, are no longer around anywhere. They were gobbled up by BP, I believe. Just as Speedway, which benefits from being HQ'd outside Dayton where it has a quasi monopoly, now resides in the northeast and Florida with their purchase of the Hess chain.

And Pogues-Ayers (among other department stores) were regional nameplates that were a part of Federated (or May) which owned Macy's and rebranded all regional nameplates into Macy's over 10 years ago. May eventually was purchased by Federated, thus the disappearance of regional nameplates Kaufmann's, Marshall Fields, among others. The problem here is even 20 years ago, there were only four or five major players in department stores across the US. Federated, May, Saks (Parisian, Herberger's, Younker's), Dillard's and Belk's (at least in the south). The top two have merged and consolidated nameplates. Saks broke apart their down stream nameplates to Bon-Ton Store's (Elder-Beerman's now parent) and Belk bought the other big name from Saks (Parisian's final destination).

Part of that menagerie of metros served is the larger movement towards consolidation of service oriented companies. Dillard's is a prime example of this. Primarily a southern department store, among the likes of the late Parisian and its current owner, Belk, it only operates in northern metros where it bought other chains back in the 80's and 90's. It didn't buy Lazurus or Kauffman's, and never opened at Tuttle, Easton or Polaris after they entered Cincinnati and Cleveland.

Long story short.

While TV markets can mark a metro's line based on advertising, with the consolidation and fluid nature of borders, retail and other consumer services are not the end-all definition of metros. It really, IMO, should not matter at all.

[motorman]

^ I totally agree with your well presented argument. My initial observation was that the list of examples provided was not only totally irrelevant, but also obsolete and severely flawed. As I emphasized, any discussion of this thread should be based on the more reliable MSA index.

I appreciate your extensive knowledge and thorough presentation. Your input will help to ensure that this thread gets back on the right track.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by motorman

^ I totally agree with your well presented argument. My initial observation was that the list of examples provided was not only totally irrelevant, but also obsolete and severely flawed. As I emphasized, any discussion of this thread should be based on the more reliable MSA index.

I appreciate your extensive knowledge and thorough presentation. Your input will help to ensure that this thread gets back on the right track.

It depends upon the size of the business, market and target audience and region. In some cases the TV Market is going to be more relevant for statistical purposes than the MSA.