Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This sounds a bit like exoticism, as several of the American cities on this list would at least be comparable to Zurich, Montreal and Cape Town in terms of most of what you mention. New Orleans is very culturally rich for a city its size, Denver is dynamic and has a bit of that Barcelona feel to it (maybe more of the Amsterdam feel over the last year or so,) and Atlanta has enough going on to put it on a global level too. It seems it may be your relative familiarity with American history and the stories in the cities or perhaps a distaste for the culture and politics that turns you off to American cities. I actually found Buenos Aires less exciting than Brazil's cities, and like Cape Town, sort of depressing in its US style inequality.
Uh...what? Amsterdam is a weed joke I imagine, Denver has a Barcelona feel? Can you explain what you mean?
Also, I know you weren't talking to me but the second part in bold seems like a pretty blatant attempt to dodge his "points" by creating a strawman
Uh...what? Amsterdam is a weed joke I imagine, Denver has a Barcelona feel? Can you explain what you mean?
Also, I know you weren't talking to me but the second part in bold seems like a pretty blatant attempt to dodge his "points" by creating a strawman
First, yes, Amsterdam was a weed joke, but when I say Denver has a Barcelona feel, I'm referring to the current crop of young artists, designers and tech professionals that give both cities an artistic vibrancy that's difficult to match in other places around the globe right now. Both are culturally hot in this sense, globally.
I'm not sure where I introduced the straw man, but I can elucidate:
Quote:
"World class" is used pretty liberally on CD, and can mean a lot of different things to different people. To me, I find many American cities pretty lacking compared to cities in Europe, Asia and even South America. If World Class is showing up on a list of Global Index or GDP-based lists, then maybe...but who really cares about that? To me, "world class" is Barcelona, Amsterdam, Buenos Aires, Paris, Tokyo, Montreal, Cape Town, etc. Even smaller cities in Europe offer so much more than "major cities" in the USA IMO. Travel to someplace like Zurich (~380k) and see how much more dynamic it feels than cities 2 or 3 times the size in the US. Better infrastructure, architecture, so much to see on foot or bike, the history, the culture, etc. Just my opinion...
So he breaks down "dynamism" into these categories:
Infrastructure
Architecture
So much to see on foot or bike
History
Culture
Etc...
And his subjective opinion is that a city like Barcelona surpasses a city like Denver in all of them. I'd disagree.
Infrastructure, Barcelona traffic is a tangled mess, and its trains often overcrowded. Its trams are very good, though, and beat Denver's busses in frequency and timeliness. All told, though, transit is relatively close.
Architecture- I'm not going to argue Barcelona's superiority there
So much to see on foot or bike - This is where I see him valuing European culture over US culture in terms of subjective standards. It's hard to argue that Denver and the surrounding areas don't have as much to see or do as a European city, you just have to go outside and look around, but it's easy to argue that Denver doesn't have as much European cultural draws such as museums filled with dead people's works and creepy churches. Barcelona has a similar contemporary arts scene, but a city like Florence? Not so much.
History - in a way this one's unfair to American cities, simply as it's a cumulative measure, but again here the default seemed to be "human cultural history" as the only acceptable standard whereas Colorado does a fantastic job of measuring its history in geologic and paleontologic terms. If that's taken into account, it's also very close.
Culture - Rich American cities like Denver or Atlanta can stand toe to toe with most European cities in terms of currently produced culture, but they'd falter if Eurocentric cultural idioms are seen as the only globally acceptable standard.
Etc... - And here we go to something that's completely up in the air, so I may as well make up things for the category too. Skiing? Denver has it. Fried chicken? Atlanta's pretty good at that. Baseball? Denver (alright, this is debatable) and Atlanta both have it, it's in none of those other cities.
So the idea that these cities aren't "world class" (I'd argue both Denver and Atlanta are, not so much the other cities in this poll) is based on a "global" standard that seemingly originates in Europe and is about European tastes and traditions, or in other words a standard that doesn't seem altogether global to me.
I think it's exoticism because you are elevating the unfamiliar simply for its unfamiliarity. The other option is elitism, as you may be taking a Eurocentric cultural standpoint to define "world class" given the inclusion of Florence and Brussels here. To me it's defined by global connectivity and having top of the world standards in whatever that city's best at, or alternatively to be a regional commerce hub that draws visitors from around the world to establish business connections.
Those were some examples, and not just Europeans have built better cities IMO. There are principles of urban design that influence my belief behind what makes a city world class (at least part of what makes it world class). I'm good with varying styles, which is why I also mentioned Cape Town, Tokyo, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting this "unfamiliarity" perspective...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist
The thought exercise is interesting even though I feel it's probably less enlightening than you, I'm in a cultural field that currently values Denver highly but has deeper roots in Florence. It's in a sense comparing a Mecca to a Dubai. One with the richer history but the other with far more interesting current work being produced, but if I was in fashion, I might feel differently. Also, I think there's as much to do around Denver, but it involves an active, outdoor mentality whereas Florence involves a lot of indoor looking at treasures the city hasn't really added to for the last 150 years. For somebody like me, that makes it feel stale.
Brussels is fun at night, but San Diego is also vibrant and touristy. Also a push. Again there's also an indoors/outdoors divide in the activity. I'm really not sure what the difference would be between Portland and Vancouver their vibes are very similar to me. However, more current work is being produced in Portland in my field.
Culture exists everywhere, I certainly wasn't trying to say it doesn't. And the activities that one prefers will certainly determine which city they prefer as well. However, does having outdoor activities make it world class? I don't know, and I'd personally say no unless it's truly done so at a level no others can compete with. It's great when a city utilizes its outdoor amenities, but rarely is the city solely known worldwide for doing so. I go back to the point of defining what "world class" is. If the intention of the thread was to ask "which cities are progressing and have increasingly better amenities and rising populations", I think that's something different entirely.
World Class, IMO, means that the city itself has a healthy diverse infrastructure, enough density to develop a unique and rich culture, a reasonably strong business and economic climate, unique characteristics that can compete on the international stage, provides a strong sense of place, and exudes INTERNATIONAL influence from all of previous factors.
Nope, nothing wrong with that. Every city I listed has highways and parking. However, I disagree that a diverse infrastructure is not paramount to a world class city.
EDIT: Canada is a good comparison to the USA because it's similar in age and even less dense/more spread out than the US, yet its cities often have better coverage for multiple modes of transportation. I don't buy the whole thing about the USA being different...seems like American Exceptionalism to me. The real answer is that Americans prefer driving and are willing and able to pay for it. Not a bad thing, unless you like walkable cities with great spaces for people.
Nope... no American Exceptionalism here...
Yes Canadian cities are farther from each other however the actual urban areas themselves are more dense and less dominated by suburbs.
Those were some examples, and not just Europeans have built better cities IMO. There are principles of urban design that influence my belief behind what makes a city world class (at least part of what makes it world class). I'm good with varying styles, which is why I also mentioned Cape Town, Tokyo, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting this "unfamiliarity" perspective...
Culture exists everywhere, I certainly wasn't trying to say it doesn't. And the activities that one prefers will certainly determine which city they prefer as well. However, does having outdoor activities make it world class? I don't know, and I'd personally say no unless it's truly done so at a level no others can compete with. It's great when a city utilizes its outdoor amenities, but rarely is the city solely known worldwide for doing so. I go back to the point of defining what "world class" is. If the intention of the thread was to ask "which cities are progressing and have increasingly better amenities and rising populations", I think that's something different entirely.
World Class, IMO, means that the city itself has a healthy diverse infrastructure, enough density to develop a unique and rich culture, a reasonably strong business and economic climate, unique characteristics that can compete on the international stage, provides a strong sense of place, and exudes INTERNATIONAL influence from all of previous factors.
I think that's why I described it as exoticism, as it seems to exclude US cities based on their geography rather than whether they're actually meeting those definitions you've set and including world cities that don't actually seem to fit the criteria. Cape Town is one of the most sprawled cities in Africa, with a population density of 1500/sq. km, and it's getting worse in this measure, while Denver is rapidly improving with its population boom being pulled inward into the city itself. The two cities' urban areas should criss-cross in density in the next few years at current rates (Atlanta's admittedly terrible with sprawl.) Cape Town's infrastructure is nothing to crow about for most of the city, either, only functional in well to do pockets. You brought up Florence in comparison to Denver earlier too, and while I've stopped to share wine with lovely people in a lovely old house without indoor plumbing in the last three years in Firenza, I've never had that issue in American cities. The problem with older cities is often older infrastructure, or retrofitted infrastructure that doesn't fully function.
You also say it's rare for a city to be known worldwide for its outdoor amenities, and this is true, but of the cities listed, I'm pretty sure both Denver and San Diego (which btw, is more dense than Cape Town) would qualify in this regard in the same way that say Geneva and Monaco do, respectively. If you've ever been to DIA in the winter you'll be able to hear snippets of conversation in every developed country's tongue on the planet.
First, yes, Amsterdam was a weed joke, but when I say Denver has a Barcelona feel, I'm referring to the current crop of young artists, designers and tech professionals that give both cities an artistic vibrancy that's difficult to match in other places around the globe right now. Both are culturally hot in this sense, globally.
her words a standard that doesn't seem altogether global to me.
Huh? We're talking Denver, Colorado here?
Since when was Denver similar to Barcelona and with "artistic vibrancy that's difficult to match in other places around the globe"? Denver isn't in the Top 20 U.S. cities in terms "artistic vibrancy"; it certainly isn't some global cultural heavyweight, in really anything.
And I like Denver! I think it has a fantastic quality of life. But this is the first time I have heard of it likened to an American Barcelona and a global cultural heavyweight. It's known for the outdoors, for the mountains, and the like, not for anything related to high culture.
Since when was Denver similar to Barcelona and with "artistic vibrancy that's difficult to match in other places around the globe"? Denver isn't in the Top 20 U.S. cities in terms "artistic vibrancy"; it certainly isn't some global cultural heavyweight, in really anything.
And I like Denver! I think it has a fantastic quality of life. But this is the first time I have heard of it likened to an American Barcelona and a global cultural heavyweight. It's known for the outdoors, for the mountains, and the like, not for anything related to high culture.
Because artists hate the outdoors, they're bookworms, really, they just can't stand living in cities with cheap quality alcohol and now even legal weed. Yep, it makes plenty of sense why artists, who have always been the most straitlaced and square among us will be turned off by this heathen pleasure dome out west. Whatever list you're looking at that says it's not in the top 20 of vibrant, living arts culture in the US is likely at least a decade old, unless you've made it up yourself. High incomes of potential patrons, the easy to find straight gigs, the lifestyle, and all the urban amenities have made it a very popular relocation place for US and international artists in the last few years, just as it's a popular relocation place for everybody else.
Not counting Aspen and a few other mountain festivals outside the metro, it's lagging a bit in the performing arts still, but otherwise it's very strong.
I would put Atlanta and Miami ahead of both of those cities. Houston and Dallas are great but there not quite certainly not world class cities yet.
Actually, Atlanta, and especially Miami, are quite behind Houston and Dallas in that department.
Last edited by Yn0hTnA; 11-06-2014 at 09:36 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
