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If you are sitting at the Prudential people might say “let’s go downtown” if you’re at Post offfice sq nobody would say “let’s go downtown”
It’s very similar to those “well metro Cleveland is only 2600 sq miles while metro Cincy is 3700sq miles, at 3700 sq miles Cleveland is more populous”
But that ignores the fact Cleveland is smaller than Cincinnati because Akron is not suburban Cleveland. It’s Akron.
Because urban geography isn’t fungible
Yes and no.
Comparing official downtown's based on municipality is a crap shoot at best because they are defined so arbitrary relative to one another and "downtowns" don't function in a void.
"Downtown" is such an arbitrary loose term in modern colloquial conversation that 9/10 times they are composed of multiple neighborhoods that collectively form "a downtown" which doesn't inherently lesson/diminish the individual neighborhoods identity(s).
I'm trying to understand "fungible." Is it "tradable, like money or a commodity," "interchangable," or "flexible in its particulars"? Maybe the latter?
How people define downtowns is extremely "flexible in its particulars." The word means millions of things to millions of people.
I'm trying to understand "fungible." Is it "tradable, like money or a commodity," "interchangable," or "flexible in its particulars"? Maybe the latter?
How people define downtowns is extremely "flexible in its particulars." The word means millions of things to millions of people.
What makes dollars tradable is that they’re of equal value to each other.
“downtown Minneapolis” is 4sq miles. Downtown Cincinnati is not. Everything north of the Central Parkway is Over the Rhine. Mount Adams/Mt Auburn is east of the basin and not Downtown and everything beyond Elm St is the West End.
The South Side Flats isn’t downtown Pittsburgh even it’s it’s part of its core 4 sq miles.
Neighborhoods are cultural regions and identities. They can’t be scaled to the same size and compared because the urban fabric of cities isn’t interchangeable. What works as a definition of a neighborhood in one city can not be transposed to another.
That's a terminology issue. It's easier if you think "greater downtown" and include those dense contiguious areas.
Zip codes are much too broad to be useful. Tracts are better.
Radii can be useful but water is a big problem.
I agree that Census tracts are the best way to compare data across cities, but if you look at a map of the Center City Philadelphia postal districts, you will see that they come very close to matching the borders of the 1682 Town/1701 City pf Philadelphia, which are also the borders of present-day Center City, as I explained,
19106 includes the waterfront to its north and south (as far as Tasker Street east of Columbus Boulevard, but there are few residents on the waterfront south of South Street), and the other three ZIP codes include the block to the north of Vine Street and omit the two blocks south of Pine (one block, south of Lombard, in 19103's case), but they otherwise conform very closely to those boundaries.
I did say this was an approximation. I wasn't disagreeing with you but offering a quick-and-dirty alternative for use here but probably not in many other cities.
Comparing official downtown's based on municipality is a crap shoot at best because they are defined so arbitrary relative to one another and "downtowns" don't function in a void.
"Downtown" is such an arbitrary loose term in modern colloquial conversation that 9/10 times they are composed of multiple neighborhoods that collectively form "a downtown" which doesn't inherently lesson/diminish the individual neighborhoods identity(s).
This gets to the heart of the matter.
"Downtown" has two, maybe three meanings, depending on where you live.
The one we're using for this discussion is another term for "central business district." The CBD may also encompass residential districts immediately adjacent to it, or it may be part of a neighborhood that extends beyond it.
But in some cities, it's also a directional term. This is most notable in New Orleans, whose CBD just upriver from the original settlement (the French Quarter), and "uptown" and "downtown" are also terms referencing where a place is located relative to the course of the Mississippi River (the city street grid bends with it). Thus one can go "downtown" from downtown New Orleans.
It's actually used that way here in Philadelphia too, though rarely. As already noted, we don't call our downtown "downtown." And if you're heading from Center City into South Philadelphia, you're going "downtown" as well (both of the rivers that border Center City flow north to south as well, so there's also a parallel with New Orleans). The word is used in Manhattan as it's used here, to describe movement towards the southern end of the island (city in Philly's case).
In several other cities, "downtown" means "towards the core city neighborhoods" — and said neighborhoods may not be part of the CBD. Boston's Back Bay and South End are perhaps the best examples of this. Seattle has this as well, it appears.
But you could be on Mission Hill and say “let’s go downtown” and mean the Prudential Center.
Yeah, various cities have specific areas that are known as "downtown.". But for national comparisons it helps to have consistent definitions of downtown that apply to the broader core activity center. Otherwise you end up with nonsensical comparisons where high rises around the Boston North Station aren't downtown, but residential row houses areas in Society Hill are in DT Philly.
Yeah, various cities have specific areas that are known as "downtown.". But for national comparisons it helps to have consistent definitions of downtown that apply to the broader core activity center. Otherwise you end up with nonsensical comparisons where high rises in Boston theater district aren't downtown, but residential row houses areas in Society Hill are in DT Philly.
Okay but Downtown Pittsburgh just is physically smaller than Downtown Cleveland
And as a result it feels different and is built different.
Cleveland has the Mall and Public square and its Baseball park Downtown, while Pittsburgh has more highrises and is more congested generally because of its geography. The stuff people notice about Pittsburgh is because its Downtown is limited in scope. To find comparative sized areas just cheating
Just drawing two 3 sq Mile blocks is more dishonest than just accepting Downtown Pittsburgh is smaller physically than Cleveland.
Boston is similar Downtown is small due to geography of the city. It’s not built like Center city which was always just between the two rivers since 1700.
Okay but Downtown Pittsburgh just is physically smaller than Downtown Cleveland
And as a result it feels different and is built different.
Cleveland has the Mall and Public square and its Baseball park Downtown, while Pittsburgh has more highrises and is more congested generally because of its geography. The stuff people notice about Pittsburgh is because its Downtown is limited in scope. To find comparative sized areas just cheating
Just drawing two 3 sq Mile blocks is more dishonest than just accepting Downtown Pittsburgh is smaller physically than Cleveland.
Boston is similar Downtown is small due to geography of the city. It’s not built like Center city which was always just between the two rivers since 1700.
I think we are making separate points. Cleveland may be geographically larger, but that is based on a consistent framework for what constitutes a downtown.
My point is the areas that are functionally downtown in many cities does not correspond with what many locals refer to as downtown.
Large sections of Center City Philly feels more like a downtown adjacent neighborhood than downtown itself. IMO, it is more analogous to Boston Proper than DT Boston.
For example Downtown Minneapolis very much is like 1 3 sq mile neighborhood.
Transpose 3 sq miles onto Boston and you got Downtown, the Seaport, Beacon Hill, Back Bay the North End etc.
A ton of cities simply have highway loops that determine borders of Downtown.
You could say Bostons pretty unique but as a neighborhood the North End is 200 years older than Back Bay. (Most of the North Ends buildings are more like 70 years older)
Many US cities kind of blew up in 1 generation (like Cleveland and Detroit for example) but you do have places like St Louis, SF, New Orleans which are much more complicated than that.
Like no matter what you think Canal Street is a divider between what effectively were Anglo and French New Orleans for 100 years. The CBD and the French Quarter are just not the same thing.
Yeah New Orleans is a good example. The French quarter is very urban, it's the oldest part of the city, it's the cultural hub of the city, etc. But it's absolutely not "downtown" which is on the other side of Canal, and there is zero mistaking the CBD for the French Quarter as they are very different.
Of course, I also understand why it feels pedantic to not consider the FQ when ranking New Orleans as a downtown, because obviously it's a short walk to get from downtown to the heart of the quarter.
DC is like this for me as well. It's a fantastic urban city by American standards, and there are many great urban neighborhoods connected into downtown, but the downtown itself doesn't really capture the interesting parts of the city IMO.
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