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For the last damn time... the Bay Area is NOT one metro. It is two metros. The San Fran/Oakland Metro and the San Jose Metro. It is one CSA. Two very different things.
Anybody who's actually from here knows that it's all the same metro region. It's completely interconnected. There's no differentiation by the locals. The Bay Area is a nine county region that is one blob of continuous development. Technically, the census bureau separates it, but it doesn't represent reality. I'm not really sure how somebody from Philly is an expert on this.
Anybody who's actually from here knows that it's all the same metro region. It's completely interconnected. There's no differentiation by the locals. The Bay Area is a nine county region that is one blob of continuous development. Technically, the census bureau separates it, but it doesn't represent reality. I'm not really sure how somebody from Philly is an expert on this.
I think the vocal Philly posters and myself are also trying to say that the region between Philadelphia and New York is also becoming one blob of continuous development. Technically, the census bureau separates it as well, but it doesn't represent reality.
Are they as connected as San Francisco-San Jose? Well, according to this poll, most likely not. But NY-Philadelphia are still becoming connected via development.
Culturally and socially is a different topic, but the fact of the matter is that Philadelphia and New York are connected.
I think the vocal Philly posters and myself are also trying to say that the region between Philadelphia and New York is also becoming one blob of continuous development. Technically, the census bureau separates it as well, but it doesn't represent reality.
Are they as connected as San Francisco-San Jose? Well, according to this poll, most likely not. But NY-Philadelphia are still becoming connected via development.
Culturally and socially is a different topic, but the fact of the matter is that Philadelphia and New York are connected.
I lived in the Bay area for a bit and believe the place is all one despite what the census says. The census has more than one funky cut line.
On thing that is a fact is that NYC and Philadelphia meet the UA requirements by census tract on a continuum as per their classification and rules (though are seperated because of MSA cut lines; the exact same way that th UA of SF and SJ are on this basis; meaning cut at the census MSA border); something the Bay in total does not even meet though SF and SJ are absolutely connected in this fashion.
To me though SF/SJ is not at all a good comparator; it is all one area; NYC and Philadelphia are two larger cities that are close together and have basically grown together but not a uniform identity nor connection like the Bay area; there is cross boundary interplay all over but are very distinct places toward either core city.
I lived in the Bay area for a bit and believe the place is all one despite what the census says. The census has more than one funky cut line.
I don't doubt that the Bay Area is one place in the least bit, mostly because its 4x as small as the combined NYC-Philadelphia area, leaving very little room for very regional identities to be carved out, but since NYC and Philadelphia themselves are many times larger than SJ, SF, and OAK combined, they should logically have a larger sphere of influence.
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On thing that is a fact is that NYC and Philadelphia meet the UA requirements by census tract on a continuum as per their classification and rules (though are seperated because of MSA cut lines; the exact same way that th UA of SF and SJ are on this basis; meaning cut at the census MSA border); something the Bay in total does not even meet though SF and SJ are absolutely connected in this fashion.
True. Fact of the matter is that along the border of SF-SJ MSA's, there really is only a combined 3.7 miles of continued development, 2.7 on one side of the Bay and a scant one mile on the other side of the Bay, while all along the border of Philadelphia and NYC MSA's (and CSA by extension) there is development all along the borders. Whether or not its dense development, which has been the crux of this thread, is pretty irrelevant. Fact of the matter is, they are connected through development.
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To me though SF/SJ is not at all a good comparator; it is all one area; NYC and Philadelphia are two larger cities that are close together and have basically grown together but not a uniform identity nor connection like the Bay area; there is cross boundary interplay all over but are very distinct places toward either core city.
I can live with that.
I think the comparison to DC-Baltimore (distinct identities and media markets) and Boston-Providence (again, distinct identities and media markets) holds a much more apt comparison to Philadelphia-NYC than anywhere else, which would make sense considering the whole Northeast is built out the same way.
I don't think that LA-SD or SF-Sacramento would be good comparitors either considering that there is basically more than 10+ miles of nondevelopment separating the MSA's, something that doesn't exist between Philadelphia-NYC.
Hence its a undebatable fact that New York and Philadelphia are NOTHING like San Francisco and San Jose when it comes to consistent density, overlapping development and absolutely NOTHING like San Francisco and San Jose when it comes to regional cohesion.
I think in terms of overlapping development, NYC and Philly aren't way off from SF/SJ--they have less consistent density because they aren't nearly as geographically constrained as SF/SJ and because there were a lot of old towns and cities that are formed themselves as their own little cores a long time ago so there are a lot of peaks and troughs in density.
However, the comparison is most off in terms of regional cohesion with specific examples such as media market and collective self-identification. The two metros also span all of six states and overlap in two. That's a lot of room for discoherence in governance, identity, and policy.
Side note, some of your earlier facts are off. Just saying.
Hence its a undebatable fact that New York and Philadelphia are NOTHING like San Francisco and San Jose when it comes to consistent density, overlapping development and absolutely NOTHING like San Francisco and San Jose when it comes to regional cohesion.
No kidding. Take a look at the poll, hardly anyone is disputing this. Philadelphia and NYC are two distinctly different places and no matter how much the land in between the two builds up and no matter how much quicker and more convenient travel between the two cities becomes there will never be a regional or cohesive identity between NYC and Philadelphia like the one that exists in the Bay Area. Or at least not for many generations.
The bay area is more connected through development and especially through identity. Not myself, nor kid philly, etc is disagreeing with this.
The thing that is annoying though is this: you are taking the above to an unnecessary and untrue extreme. While the regional cohesiveness between the two cities lags far behind the Bay Area, the developmental cohesion between the two cities is not nearly as far behind as you make it out to be. There are still a lot of tomatoes, cows, and woodland critters living between Philly and NYC... it is far from completely developed and it is not currently at the level of cohesion that links san fran and san jose. At the same time though there is FAR more room in-between philly and nyc than san fran and san jose because development is not constrained due to geography, not to mention the fact that no matter how you slice it, there are MILLIONS of people living between Philly and NYC.
1. Kidphilly's claim that the Philly metro is cutoff at 10,000 ppsm is absolutely correct. I have no idea why you continue to deny this.
Bucks county is in the Philadelphia Metro... hell it touches Philadelphia. It directly borders Trenton. Trenton has a density above 10,000 ppsm. Philadelphia's metro was cut off at 10,000 ppsm. What exactly are you not understanding here? Sure the townships in bucks that border trenton are NOT at 10,000 ppsm but that was not the point, the cutoff at 10,000 has always referred to Trenton. What don't you get? Besides it's not as though the townships that border have really low pop densities, morrisville, levittown, these places are above 5,000 ppsm... to put that in perspective... about the density of san jose itself!
2.
Counties located in the area between NYC and Philly (population in hundreds of thousands)
Bucks - 625.25
lehigh - 349.5
northhampton -297.75
camden - 513.5
burlington - 448.75
mercer - 366.5
ocean - 576.5
monmouth - 630.25
middlesex - 810
union -536.5
sommerset - 323.5
morris - 492.25
hudson - 624.25
essex - 784
total 7,378,500
And these are just from the counties that are undeniably located between philly and NYC. Hunterdon, Warren, monroe, pike, etc are all counties that could be considered to lie between the two cities. No matter how you cut it though the number of people that Kid Philly claimed to live between the two cities is FAR closer than your absurd estimate of 2.6 million.
Last edited by phillies2011; 03-30-2012 at 02:31 PM..
I don't doubt that the Bay Area is one place in the least bit, mostly because its 4x as small as the combined NYC-Philadelphia area, leaving very little room for very regional identities to be carved out, but since NYC and Philadelphia themselves are many times larger than SJ, SF, and OAK combined, they should logically have a larger sphere of influence.
I don't think that LA-SD or SF-Sacramento would be good comparitors either considering that there is basically more than 10+ miles of nondevelopment separating the MSA's, something that doesn't exist between Philadelphia-NYC.
The Bay Area is a very large region, bigger than Phillys. Its not locked in, but by mountains & ocean which add to it. Philly is in between other major metro areas. The Bay Area population is higher and the land area is bigger as a region....
LA - SD is a better, but not perfect comparison.
ps - what happened to your Pennsylvania vs Nor Cal thread? That may haved ended worse than this one!
The Bay Area is a very large region, bigger than Phillys. Its not locked in, but by mountains & ocean which add to it. Philly is in between other major metro areas. The Bay Area population is higher and the land area is bigger as a region....
LA - SD is a better, but not perfect comparison.
ps - what happened to your Pennsylvania vs Nor Cal thread? That may haved ended worse than this one!
why worse; is it bad not to be like th Bay?
I actually like the Bay a lot but also other areas and like the differences quite frankly
The Bay Area is a very large region, bigger than Phillys. Its not locked in, but by mountains & ocean which add to it. Philly is in between other major metro areas. The Bay Area population is higher and the land area is bigger as a region....
Well, Mercer County was taken away from Philadelphia's sphere of influence and added to New York.
In addition, the census doesn't count Berks County, which sends enough commuters into Montgomery and Bucks County to at least warrant a CSA designation.
So only a small technicality that the Philadelphia CSA is smaller than the Bay Area one.
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LA - SD is a better, but not perfect comparison.
I don't see how aside from the fact that that LA-SD are next to each other like NY-PHL. There is significantly more interaction and significantly more development between PHL-NYC than there is between LA-SD. And that's the truth.
I think PHL-NYC is between LA-SD and SJ-SF in terms of comparison, but its more like Boston-Providence and Baltimore-Washington than anything on the West Coast.
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ps - what happened to your Pennsylvania vs Nor Cal thread? That may haved ended worse than this one!
Got deleted because I think CD is tired of all the SF-Philadelphia comparisons, of which Northern California vs Pennsylvania would be part of.
I actually like the Bay a lot but also other areas and like the differences quite frankly
a little smug in your comments though slo
Mainly joking.....
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