Cleveland vs. Philadelphia (quality, pros, job, development)
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I find the PBS cotillion annoying because of their never-ending quest to run down other cities while claiming that Philly is responsible for every noteworthy achievement accomplished under the auspices of the American flag.And, earlier in this thread, when confronted with six other US cities that may be more influential, the PBS quickly backs down, claiming that any comparison is "unfair" due to its historical "disadvantages"..
Not sure why a discussion "six other US cities" is part of a Cleveland v. Philadelphia, thread anyway. And the "PBS cotillion," while relentless at times, is far more reasonable than you suggest.
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Originally Posted by MassVt
So perhaps, before you take potshots at Cleveland, you should take note of the skeletons in your own closet. And if you consider the physical condition of many of Philly's neighborhoods, you've got enough for a few thousand anatomy classes..
I think the Philly posters, by and large, have noted that, similar to Cleveland, their city is in post-industrial recovery stage.
Yeah. I can see both Cleveland and Baltimore as scaled down versions of Philadelphia.
Baltimore, maybe. Cleveland, no. Yeah they're all "Rust Belt" cities, but Philadelphia is a classic East Coast city with a dense urban core, miles and miles of rowhouses, and over 300 years of rich history. Cleveland has none of those things and is, if anything, a scaled down version of Chicago.
Baltimore, maybe. Cleveland, no. Yeah they're all "Rust Belt" cities, but Philadelphia is a classic East Coast city with a dense urban core, miles and miles of rowhouses, and over 300 years of rich history. Cleveland has none of those things and is, if anything, a scaled down version of Chicago.
Yes, Baltimore and Philly are classic rowhouse cities ( almost exclusively), while Cleveland, Milwaukee and Chicago are brick bungalow, detached housing cities..
IMO, I don't think of Balt/Philly as Rust Belt cities, although both have had industries; I tend to think of the Rust Belt as starting from Buffalo/Pittsburgh, and continuing west to Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee; some might include Indy and St. Louis, some might not..
I can only say that if I come across as a "Philly Booster" it's only because I'm not originally from here, it is not my home town (I was born in NYC) ... but moved here as an adult and adopted it as my home. It exceeded all my expectations for urban vibrancy, cultural life, historical charm, and breath-taking revitalization.
On the subject of Cleveland I cannot say too much because I visited that city only twice in the past 10 years. My impression was favorable: there was an excellent variety of good restaurants, the people seemed friendly (friendlier than most Philadelphians I dare say!), and it looked like a rather tidy city with some nice architecture. Cleveland has a neighborhood I explored called Ohio City that reminds me a lot of my own neighborhood - University City. Shady tree lined streets and beautiful old Victorian house and charming shops and cafes.
So, as a Philadelphian, I tip my hat to Cleveland - and Baltimore - and I have higher opinion of these places than some of the boring, characterless, and sprawling automobile-dependent cities of the so-called Sunbelt.
Wow, this thread has kind of veered off topic. Anyone have any thoughts on the idea that Cleveland is like a scaled down Philly? I really feel that these 2 cities have a lot in common, from their storied industrial eras, periods of decay, and eventual rebirth. From what I'm seeing you guys have a similar attitude towards your city, a kind of "us against the world" mentality.
Cleveland is not a scaled-down Philadelphia. Philadelphia is seeing population growth; Cleveland's not there yet and the dynamic of these two cities is not the same at all. Cleveland could be compared with a scaled down version of Chicago or Detroit; both of these cities claim ''rebirths'' yet are losing population. Cleveland's ''rebirth'' is 30 years old. When the population starts increasing in both Cleveland and its metro area, Cleveland can claim a rebirth. Philly's population decline never came close to Cleveland's almost 60%. A 60% population decline is incredible, St Louis and probably Detroit are the other two that come close to this.
Some industrial cities, from Boston to St. Louis, have had decline and rebirth; Boston, NY, Philly,now Baltimore. The midwest cities are lagging, mostly due to the fact that the growth of these cities was due to geographic positioning (rivers, then the Great Lakes) which are not as important today. Philly's location is working to its advantage, again.
Cleveland should capitalize on its GLs port location as a less expensive alternative to the east coast; Toledo is moving on this where Cleveland's Congresswoman dropped the ball.
Philly had some rough times, no doubt, but its Center City has led its growth. Colleges and Universities in the Center City area as well as the medical community are fueling huge growth. Cleveland's downtown was wholly abandoned.
Philly is a growing immigrant city; Cleveland's mayor wants to focus on current residents.
Cleveland may have claimed rebirth 30 years ago, but really it was not much more than high profile, heavily subsidized projects such as Gateway and the Rock Hall. This development boom is completely different and is capitalizing on the national movement back to cities, as well as a city with healthy finances, available property, and openness to development (a change from previous city administrations). There has not been this much private investment and vibrancy downtown in at least 40 years.
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Cleveland should capitalize on its GLs port location as a less expensive alternative to the east coast; Toledo is moving on this where Cleveland's Congresswoman dropped the ball.
Wrong. Cleveland just saw the first international container ship on a great lakes port in over a decade.
The route goes monthly between Cleveland and Belgium, and they're talking about expanding it to bi-monthly.
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Philly had some rough times, no doubt, but its Center City has led its growth. Colleges and Universities in the Center City area as well as the medical community are fueling huge growth. Cleveland's downtown was wholly abandoned.
Tell that to Key Bank, Tower City, Gateway, the Rock Hall, the countless law offices, the federal courthouse building, the county headquarters, city hall, etc. Downtown Cleveland was never "wholly abandoned". Sure, it saw loss of business, but it never declined to the point that less than 75% of the offices were occupied. Cleveland is also experiencing tons of growth in its center city area, and its medical community is growing.
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Philly is a growing immigrant city; Cleveland's mayor wants to focus on current residents.
Cleveland may have claimed rebirth 30 years ago, but really it was not much more than high profile, heavily subsidized projects such as Gateway and the Rock Hall. This development boom is completely different and is capitalizing on the national movement back to cities, as well as a city with healthy finances, available property, and openness to development (a change from previous city administrations). There has not been this much private investment and vibrancy downtown in at least 40 years.
Wrong. Cleveland just saw the first international container ship on a great lakes port in over a decade.
The route goes monthly between Cleveland and Belgium, and they're talking about expanding it to bi-monthly.
Tell that to Key Bank, Tower City, Gateway, the Rock Hall, the countless law offices, the federal courthouse building, the county headquarters, city hall, etc. Downtown Cleveland was never "wholly abandoned". Sure, it saw loss of business, but it never declined to the point that less than 75% of the offices were occupied. Cleveland is also experiencing tons of growth in its center city area, and its medical community is growing.
I didn't say Cleveland isn't seeing development. Of course a city like Cleveland has its government offices downtown. Tower City, hopefully has a better future than the past 24 years; didn't pan out as planned as it went from Gucci to Hoochie. The isolated Rock Hall. Also, the port container issue just happened as did the Jobs Ohio ''plans to'' partner with Global Cleveland. All of these are great starts and ideas and, hopefully, will lead to city and regional population and income growth, both of which metro Cleveland needs. So you can't compare Cleveland to Philly as Philly is way ahead of Cleveland due, in part, because it didn't decline as severely as Cleveland. Philly's Center City population is about 100,000; Cleveland's, 12,000 and growing. One foreign container shipment a month during the season is not utilizing its port to potential, it's good news but where has the city been on its port otherwise? Cleveland should be the largest port on the Great Lakes. Does Congresswoman Marcia Fudge even know the port is in her district? Also, The Galleria was a huge failure as were, in the end, The Flats. Does Jones Day still consider Cleveland as its home office/headquarters city?
I mean, just your responses show how bad a comparison Cleveland and Philly is.
I didn't say Cleveland isn't seeing development. Of course a city like Cleveland has its government offices downtown. Tower City, hopefully has a better future than the past 24 years; didn't pan out as planned as it went from Gucci to Hoochie. The isolated Rock Hall. Also, the port container issue just happened as did the Jobs Ohio ''plans to'' partner with Global Cleveland. All of these are great starts and ideas and, hopefully, will lead to city and regional population and income growth, both of which metro Cleveland needs. So you can't compare Cleveland to Philly as Philly is way ahead of Cleveland due, in part, because it didn't decline as severely as Cleveland. Philly's Center City population is about 100,000; Cleveland's, 12,000 and growing. One foreign container shipment a month during the season is not utilizing its port to potential, it's good news but where has the city been on its port otherwise? Cleveland should be the largest port on the Great Lakes. Does Congresswoman Marcia Fudge even know the port is in her district? Also, The Galleria was a huge failure as were, in the end, The Flats. Does Jones Day still consider Cleveland as its home office/headquarters city?
I mean, just your responses show how bad a comparison Cleveland and Philly is.
No, you didn't say Cleveland isn't seeing development, but you strike me as the typical, stuck in the past Cleveland complainer who looks at everything with a glass half empty attitude. Yes, Cleveland made some major mistakes in the past, when it tried to recover from the loss of manufacturing jobs with ill-advised white elephant projects. But, the tides have changed now. Mayor Jackson is leading this city in a different direction, and businesses and residents have responded. People like you can't see what's coming, you are so stuck on the past, when it's apparent that the future holds bright things for Cleveland, as more and more game-changing development is announced. I absolutely think that these 2 cities can be compared, and Philly did fall very hard, and experienced similar problems with poor city management, white flight, and corrupt leadership in the wake of their industrial demise. Both cities are also, similarly experiencing a come-back albeit on different scales.
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