Phoenix, Denver, Atlanta, Minneapolis, or Boston? (living, best, cost, state)

[Trafalgar Law]

I'm evaluating all my options, getting last minute opinions in before I lay the foundation out to my living scenario, which I'll need to finalize very soon as it's right around the corner.

I'd like to try a place that I haven't lived in but this city wont be a permanent settling point (hence why these cities are the options and not New York, Toronto, or Miami). Something for about a year to a maximum of two years at most is what I would like.

Also my living arrangements in said city will only be Thursday nights, Friday's, Saturday's, Sunday's, and I will be out (flight to Miami, each Monday mornings, where I'll be spending the other half of the week and working).

As of the moment, Denver is my favorite of the bunch. Quite like the vibe there and while Phoenix is consistently slammed on this forum for one reason to the next (I don't take the forum opinions seriously, have seen Phoenix for myself, it's beautiful to say the least), I find it's outskirts and in general Arizona to be amongst my favorite states (would go as far as to say it's number one or two).

I'm doing inquiries on nearly all the 20 largest markets in the country, don't be surprised if you see another thread with another set of cities sometime later. Like I said, evaluating all options.

About me:
Religious affiliation: None. Atheist. Don't believe in religion and don't care for the concept of "god".

Age: firmly in the start of my middle-20's.

Background: Singaporean born, Indian descent, American raised (not an American citizen though, which is why I'm only looking at large markets (need the consulates for travel purposes and paper work)).

Orientation: Straight, don't ever want a family of my own. Never plan on marrying or having kids.

Socially: both extroverted and introverted, depending on the general mood. I can be as quiet to the point where it may seem I don't exist or very engaged, again, depending on my general mindset for the day.

Living requirements: Rent. Don't ever plan on owning property, don't want to either. Preference for a neighborhood with easy access to entertainment, nightlife, scenery, amenities, cultural institutions, theaters, such (I wont be working in any of these cities, so being close to "work" is not important).

Climate preferences: HATE COLD. I don't like it one bit and anything lower than 65 degrees is straight out of my comfort zone, but I've accepted that for a good place you need to make sacrifices sometimes and am willing to cope with a "winter" if the place offers everything I need.

Interests: an urban park with a very top notch outdoor amphitheater where performances and shows are scheduled everyday of the weekend, a diverse stock in nightlife (during the NBA and MLS season/especially post-season I prefer bars, during the regular year otherwise I prefer raves and concerts, and rarely prefer lounges or clubs but could come in handy when going out with friends.) Water related activities, particularly wake boarding and jet skiing (year round is the preference), so either a non-polluted lake or river. Hiking and camping is not something I do often but every three months or so would be nice to get the experience, so a place with close proximity to that. Lots of festivals and parades too (don't care what type; car, international/ethnic, music, tech, film, fashion, whatever). All around strong stock in culinary scene (both a regional cuisine as well as ethnic ones, I like and expect both). Also, a place where hookah bars actually exist, real ones and good ones.

Infrastructure: Top notch airport, first and foremost. Nothing dumpy looking with rude and incompetent TSA staffing, nothing with a dumpy looking presidential lounge either (I go four hours early and I do like to sit there and work on things while I wait). Having some form of rail transit is a plus, especially in MLS and NBA post-seasons (bars) but will mostly use the car (or just walk) and it makes me very angry when a city has inferior trash quality roads that can mess up the alignment/axle and eventually wear/tear on my car. So efficient and modern roads, this one is a priority.

My preference has me at Denver (first) or Phoenix (second) right now. Any suggestions? Feel free to include anything, like I mentioned, I have a large pool of places where I'm evaluating and will be consequently eliminating when I determine "wont work out". I also thought about Tucson and San Diego but I'll wait until a later point in life, perhaps when I am old and my health starts deteriorating due to old age.

Thanks in advance.

[cwkimbro]

Well many of these cities are far different from one another.

I'm afraid to suggest Boston if Denver or Phoenix are your current first choices. It is just a very different city, very expensive, but it has an atmosphere and history that can't be beat.

I'm just curious what your thoughts are on Atlanta so far?
I don't want to suggest it if what you want is a better fit in Denver. The only two things that jumped out at me, which is more practical to your situation, is the length of the flight to Miami. Atlanta is ideally located for a much shorter flight. This means more sleep, longer weekends, longer workday potential Mondays.

Flying from Miami to Denver/Phoenix will take a larger chunk out of your day 2x a week. Atlanta will certainly cut down on the travel weariness... and I say this as a frequent traveler. You will also find more frequent flights between ATL and MIA, which means better choice of flights, ability to leave early on days you finish up in the office early (DL frequent flier benefit with Gold status), and if a flight is delayed for mechanical reasons etc... there are more options for them to get another plane and make it less of a pain.

It also will be closer to the climate of Singapore, although not as hot, not as humid, and will have 4 seasons. It will be less cold than Denver and won't be as dry as Phoenix. I'm not sure how much that matters to you.

Atlanta has what you're looking for, but one reason I like Denver is its size. More of the metro is centered on Denver's downtown, which is the go-to place. It will also be cheaper, easier to find places with easier access. Atlanta sort of outgrew that, we have multiple centers, and we are working on different type of urban building programs to get back some of what we lost.

Atlanta, while not so bad in-town, is definitely in the bible belt and that is evident.

Rent rates are also very high right now thanks to the perfect storm of section 8 vouchers, destruction of public housing, and the housing collapse pushing use-to-be homeowners into the rental market. Intown properties for young professionals tend to run high if you don't have a roommate, but they are very yuppie-centric. pro-con

Airport is top notch. The MARTA train directly connects to the airport. There is a single large security line, instead of a bunch of small scattered ones. It is overwhelming, but it also never backs up as bad as small ones that might get 'slammed' for short periods of time like they do in Miami.

We don't have an MLS team yet. We will in 2017 for the first time in a shiny stadium, so ATL would mean 3 years out of your life with no MLS team.

Denver is a good choice though. I just wanted to give you my thoughts about my home town as it pertains to you.

[Trafalgar Law]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

Well many of these cities are far different from one another.

I'm afraid to suggest Boston if Denver or Phoenix are your current first choices. It is just a very different city, very expensive, but it has an atmosphere and history that can't be beat.

I'm just curious what your thoughts are on Atlanta so far?
I don't want to suggest it if what you want is a better fit in Denver. The only two things that jumped out at me, which is more practical to your situation, is the length of the flight to Miami. Atlanta is ideally located for a much shorter flight. This means more sleep, longer weekends, longer workday potential Mondays.

Flying from Miami to Denver/Phoenix will take a larger chunk out of your day 2x a week. Atlanta will certainly cut down on the travel weariness... and I say this as a frequent traveler. You will also find more frequent flights between ATL and MIA, which means better choice of flights, ability to leave early on days you finish up in the office early (DL frequent flier benefit with Gold status), and if a flight is delayed for mechanical reasons etc... there are more options for them to get another plane and make it less of a pain.

It also will be closer to the climate of Singapore, although not as hot, not as humid, and will have 4 seasons. It will be less cold than Denver and won't be as dry as Phoenix. I'm not sure how much that matters to you.

Atlanta has what you're looking for, but one reason I like Denver is its size. More of the metro is centered on Denver's downtown, which is the go-to place. It will also be cheaper, easier to find places with easier access. Atlanta sort of outgrew that, we have multiple centers, and we are working on different type of urban building programs to get back some of what we lost.

Atlanta, while not so bad in-town, is definitely in the bible belt and that is evident.

Rent rates are also very high right now thanks to the perfect storm of section 8 vouchers, destruction of public housing, and the housing collapse pushing use-to-be homeowners into the rental market. Intown properties for young professionals tend to run high if you don't have a roommate, but they are very yuppie-centric. pro-con

Airport is top notch. The MARTA train directly connects to the airport. There is a single large security line, instead of a bunch of small scattered ones. It is overwhelming, but it also never backs up as bad as small ones that might get 'slammed' for short periods of time like they do in Miami.

We don't have an MLS team yet. We will in 2017 for the first time in a shiny stadium, so ATL would mean 3 years out of your life with no MLS team.

Denver is a good choice though. I just wanted to give you my thoughts about my home town as it pertains to you.

Yeah Miami and Atlanta are two of the most connected cities in the country in terms of air traffic: World's busiest passenger air routes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I suppose to be fair, I could explain why I'm looking into a new (temporary) home. I want to try something new, I've lived in a lot of "city-centric" and "career centric" sort of places already, so for the next 12 months - 24 months I want to take a hiatus from the status quo I've had all my life. I actually want to enjoy a few years of my youth in what I would describe as a "starter city". As in, manageable, efficient, and can work out for my interests. I also want to get into the habit of getting a bit out of my comfort zone, experience something new altogether. I don't have any living experience in the Southeastern United States, Western United States, New England, or the Upper Midwest. The cities seem popular (naturally, they're amongst the largest in the country) and decently large enough to have things going for them. The next 24 months I'd like to live in a place with close hiking, camping, outdoor recreation, beautiful and scenic escapes nearby, and the amenities of a large "region anchoring" city.

I haven't experienced Atlanta or Minneapolis, have seen the other three. My thoughts on itself is that I don't have any thoughts on Atlanta. I haven't made judgement on a place I've never experienced but if I had to say something then it seems big, full of essential amenities, geographically located in a (pretty) area, with an outstanding airport. From pictures, I can deduct that the highway and freeway systems there are efficient and probably to my standard, although I've heard terrible stories about the traffic in Atlanta and the quality of it's inner city roads (but what city doesn't have these issues?).

Naturally my favorite cities are Miami, New York, Toronto, Chicago, Vancouver, Washington, Tucson, San Diego, and Denver (in that same order) but all except Denver, I'd like to preserve them as longterm considerations rather than temporary.

For now the focus is essentially to try somewhere new, somewhere basic and easy to understand, somewhere all walks of life can be spotted, somewhere that has things Miami doesn't have. Like say hills and mountains, like say hiking and camping, like say certain cultures and foods (Phoenix: Mexican/Native American, Denver: Native American/Mexican, Atlanta: Kenyan/Nigerian, Minneapolis: Somali/Hmong, Boston: Brazilian/Portuguese). Like say a focus in flights to different corners of the globe than Miami. Like say somewhere with it's own regional identity.

A starter city, I'm still pretty young and I cant just live in Miami the entire time since I wont have any real "financial responsibilities" so I cant really build on anything while there, I have to start building experience and trying new things as well as build on things like credit score (I don't really have one, since I'm just starting off), build on experience (with different people and environments), build on memories of recreation, wildlife, outdoor activities while I'm still young.

Those things.

Another way to ask this is, what city would you say is good for being the polar opposite of Miami to where it's assets, strengths, and offerings would compliment Miami?

[cwkimbro]

Well Miami is pretty unique in its own right, so I would think most cities will offset Miami somehow in some way. Denver and Atlanta are a good way to head for the mountains.

It might give you an excuse to not worry about living somewhere cold. Oh man... so many people would love to leave some cities for half a week every week in the winter

I want to offer just one quick idea. Some cities, particularly the larger and older cities can be a bit harsh once you have a family. Once you start factoring in costs, schools, space for the $, and commutes they are a bit harder to live in.

There are some experiences in places like NYC, Chicago, ... and many other cities really that are easier to enjoy while your young, single, childless, don't need much space, and aren't worried about schools. Just consider that when you factor in long-term considerations some of those cities. There is a lifestyle in some areas that works well, because your a yuppie with lower needs, less responsibility, but value good position to other singles/activity centers.

Many actually like cities, like Denver and Atlanta, as they get older and have families. They are much more hospitable for buying a house with good public schools and being able to work in different parts of town.

Atlanta's traffic is notorious, but it is about avg for other cities its size and larger. It isn't really worse. The thing people get aggravated over is it is so spread out, it really isn't possible to commute from all parts of town to every business district in town (it is a multi-node city). If your single that won't pertain to you as much, because you don't need a big house with great schools 20 miles away. The intown street conditions are poor. In the 70s-90s the underinvestment in intown infrastructure was probably worse than most places, but I'd say things are starting to get better... they're just still behind in the backlog of repairs needed.

You really need to visit Atlanta if you become interested. It is a place people love and a place people hate. It has lots of hills, creeks, and trees. The outdoor areas are really nice. Locally there is stone mountain and outside the city you have the foothills of the Appalachian mountains to the north. There are also alot of granite outcroppings. The Appalachian Trail is in extreme North Georgia.

However, our mountains are millions of years older, aged, and smoothed over. It won't be the same experience as being next to the Rocky Mountains in Denver. To me Denver is flat. The city is just the city, but once you leave the city the mountains are incredible. They have some really excellent picturesque views of jagged mountains you won't find in too many large American cities. Then you go the opposite direction and there are these flat, open expanses with nothing on them. Atlanta is firmly in the piedmont so a small bit of the terrain carries over into the city, but the mountains are more like the Great Smoky Mountains a few hours outside the city.

The coasts are less than a days drive away, but aren't local to the city. What is nice is you can pick and choose your coast. The beaches/islands of Georgia on the Atlantic are very different from Florida on the Atlantic, which is different from The gulf beaches. To this I wish a word of caution. Atlanta isn't right there, but close. These aren't day trips, but weekend trips. I know you will be next to Miami, but I mention this because the Georgia islands are a different ball game. There are huge tidal differences caused by the shape of the coast line. They are surrounded by salt water marshes. You can also go camping on islands like Cumberland. It is just a completely different beach experience and the ecology of the area is different.


The freeways system in Atlanta is well built, but suffers from a critical flaw. They never built it all out. There were was a backlash to building new freeways. They never built multiple cross-town routes, like you'd see in many other cities. All of the north south routes merge into one path through the center of town and a single loop bypass. (compare to Dallas, Houston, Columbus OH, etc.. That merge can have some intense traffic, because 3 freeways and 3 freeway spurs are merging into one.

But my two cents... if your favorite cities are "miami, NYC, Toronto, Chicago..."

These aren't the best cities for the outdoors, so it might not be what you want for now. Just don't forget at some point in your single life there is an experience to be found there you won't get later in life.