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So does fast pace begin and end on a subway platform? What happens when you exit the subway station and walk out onto the street?
You and i both know that Chicago should obliterate DC and every other city not named NYC when it comes to transit. So yes, it's significant. The culture of Chicago is different from DC. Chicago is more of a car city. Transit gives you a snapshot of how people move throughout your city. The car culture in Chicago is more prevelant and it is deciding factor on how people get to the city. Plus, Chicago has more surface parking lots than DC. Even their DT buildings have multi-level parking garages that are above ground. In DC, that's unheard of.
This argument isn't going anywhere because we can't agree on what constitutes fast paced. You believe it's pedestrian volume for some particular streets. I think transit/cars play a pivotal role. You have provided links to back your statements, I have provided links (via Kid Philly) to show Chicago DT stations don't even do a tenth of the volume as DC's DT stations. So, we can leave it alone.
You and i both know that Chicago should obliterate DC and evey other city not named NYC when it comes to transit. So yes, it's significant. The culture of Chicago is different from DC. Chicago is more of a car city. Transit gives you a snapshot of how people move throughout your city. The car culture in Chicago is more prevelant and it is deciding factor on how people get to the city. Plus, Chicago has more surface parking lots than DC. Even their DT buildings have multi-level parking garages that are above ground. In DC, that's unheard of.
But transit is just one factor, which Chicago does quite well on. I'm not sure why you never even bother to address the city limit size disparity (Guttenberg, NJ is denser than NYC, for example) but whatever. I wouldn't say the difference between the two cities here is night and day.
However, Chicago is denser than DC. And it has far more pedestrian volume in its core. So how do those two things factor into your analysis? Don't run back and keep talking about transit share.
This argument isn't going anywhere because we can't agree on what constitutes fast paced. You believe it's pedestrian volume for some particular streets. I think transit/cars play a pivotal role. You have provided links to back your statements, I have provided links (via Kid Philly) to show Chicago DT stations don't even do a tenth of the volume as DC's DT stations. So, we can leave it alone.
The difference between me and you is that I will readily acknowledge that transit counts for something. You, on the other hand, won't acknoweldge that pedestrian volume counts for anything. Or you'll substantially minimize its role.
You don't think a big part of the reason people consider NYC "fast paced" is due to the size of its crowds?
But transit is just one factor, which Chicago does quite well on. I'm not sure why you never even bother to address the city limit size disparity (Guttenberg, NJ is denser than NYC, for example) but whatever. I wouldn't say the difference between the two cities here is night and day.
However, Chicago is denser than DC. And it has far more pedestrian volume in its core. So how do those two things factor into your analysis? Don't run back and keep talking about transit share.
Here lies the problem. I posted a link stating that DC swells by 79% during the day. The city is only 61 square miles with 20% of that parkland. That means more than 500,000 people come into the city from 7am to 7pm bringing its total population to 1.1 million. 1.1 million people are in an area the size of Chicago's west side. Chicago is 4 times the size of DC at 240 square miles. Chicago also has 4 times the population of DC. For Chicago to reach this critical mass, it would have to bring in more than 2 million people every day. It doesn't.
Here lies the problem. I posted a link stating that DC swells by 79% during the day. The city is only 61 square miles with 20% of that parkland. That means more than 500,000 people come into the city from 7am to 7pm bringing its total population to 1.1 million. 1.1 million people are in an area the size of Chicago's west side. Chicago is 4 times the size of DC at 240 square miles. Chicago also has 4 times the population of DC. For Chicago to reach this critical mass, it would have to bring in more than 2 million people every day. It doesn't.
How does this answer my question? I asked you a very specific question and you pivot away and start talking about something different entirely.
How do pedestrian volume and density factor into your analysis?
Wanna try answering the question? I at least make an effort to address the points you make. I just don't ignore them and start talking about whatever I want to talk about.
The "swelling" argument is stupid anyway. Big cities don't have as many suburban inbound commuters because they have more expansive city limits and a greater share of the region living within their borders. New York City's daytime population, for example, only increases by 8 percent during the day. Sure, Manhattan's increases much more on a percentage basis, but so does Chicago's core.
The people filling up Manhattan and the Loop aren't just suburban commuters; they are also people commuting from within the city. If it is in fact true that NYC as a whole only sees a daytime increase of around 600,000 people (compared to DC's 460,000), then that means that the overwhelming majority of workers in the Manhattan CBDs are coming from the Boroughs.
The "swelling" argument is stupid anyway. Big cities don't have as many suburban inbound commuters because they have more expansive city limits and a greater share of the region living within their borders. New York City's daytime population, for example, only increases by 8 percent during the day. Sure, Manhattan's increases much more on a percentage basis, but so does Chicago's core.
The people filling up Manhattan and the Loop aren't just suburban commuters; they are also people commuting from within the city. If it is in fact true that NYC as a whole only sees a daytime increase of around 600,000 people (compared to DC's 460,000), then that means that the overwhelming majority of workers in the Manhattan CBDs are coming from the Boroughs.
I am sure you would come up with close to (or even more than) 1.1m people in 61 sq miles if you fanned out from Downtown Chicago to cover the highest density contiguous zip codes. That would be just residential population, without counting a single commuter.
The "swelling" argument is stupid anyway. Big cities don't have as many suburban inbound commuters because they have more expansive city limits and a greater share of the region living within their borders. New York City's daytime population, for example, only increases by 8 percent during the day. Sure, Manhattan's increases much more on a percentage basis, but so does Chicago's core.
The people filling up Manhattan and the Loop aren't just suburban commuters; they are also people commuting from within the city. If it is in fact true that NYC as a whole only sees a daytime increase of around 600,000 people (compared to DC's 460,000), then that means that the overwhelming majority of workers in the Manhattan CBDs are coming from the Boroughs.
What difference does it make it they are suburban commuters or not? Fact remains they are in the city and contributing to the pace of life. Just because you are from Fairfax, Va, you should be discounted? DC's population almost doubles during the day. That has an direct impact on it's pace. These people are using transit, shopping, going to offices, eating at restaurants, walking and taking up city services, etc.
Last edited by DC's Finest; 11-18-2014 at 10:15 AM..
What difference does it make it they are suburban commuters or not? Fact remains they are in the city and contributing to the pace of life. Just because you are from Fairfax, Va, you should be discounted. DC's population almost doubles during the day. That has impact of it's pace. These people are using transit, shopping, going to offices, eating at restaurants, walking, taking up city services, etc.
You're not grasping the point.
If someone from Far Rockaway, Queens commutes into Midtown Manhattan, the core city (meaning NYC) hasn't "swelled" a bit. If someone in the DC area commuted from the same distance (approximately 21 miles), then the core city (DC) "swells" because that person is a suburban commuter. "Swelling" doesn't mean much of anything given huge size disparities.
A better comparison is simply core to core, or as Fitzrovian suggested, a geographic footprint in Chicago that's comparable to the size of the District. There was some downtown report floating around on here that gave stats not only for CBD employment, but for employment in census tracts within a half mile radius of the CBD. It would be better to use that then to say "Well, DC swells more than Chicago" because DC technically swells more than NYC too.
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