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Just to question a point made by anonelitist and others, do larger highways necessarily dictate a more massive metro feel? And if so, to what point?
Philly's biggest, baddest stretch is (arguably) from Wilmington up to Trenton. That's at least three lanes in both directions for at least 50 miles, with skylines/density on both sides, and given the heavy volume on 95 (not including 495 and other spur/local routes), feels very congested and "tight". I think this really gets to the core of the thread--density vs open spaces. Atlanta has larger freeways, yes, and the traffic to prove it, but Philly feels "tighter" on both freeways and arterial streets. That's equivalent traffic as Atlanta, but less area to work in. Additionally, somewhat of a lesser point I admit, but NE drivers are notoriously aggressive, and drive these relatively tight corridors fast and recklessly. Throw in the amount of out-of-state plates, given Philly's status as a Tri-State mecca/East Coast through corridor, and one can feel in a very massive, aggressive area with at least commensurate traffic as Atlanta.
Atlanta feels tighter from the highways than it is. That is the point. Many of Atlanta's highways are lined with buildings, some of the tallest suburban buildings in the country. Some highways go through and under these skylines. There are retail centers, industrial buildings, and other obstacles lining the highways. It's really well off the highways that you encounter Atlanta's notorious lack of building density.
See my reply just above. Metro Atlantans depend on those highways moreso than other residents of other cities because of the way Atlanta is laid out. That leads to a high concentration of commercial and public uses right along the highways rather than off (in townships or scattered about as in Philly's case).
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
Philly isn't that much larger than Atlanta's metro and gap is closing fast because the Atlanta metro is growing far quicker(Atlanta's predicted metro growth is about 85k-90k from 2013-2014). Not too long ago, Houston wasn't bigger than Philly...now it's gigantic. Atlanta also has a massive corporate presence especially when you add up all of the major CBD's in the metro: Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, Perimeter, Alpharetta, and Cumberland.
Atlanta is the de-facto city of the Southeast. Philly has to compete with 2 other large cities: NYC, the biggest of them all and D.C. the country's capital.
As you allude to, Philly doesn't have as much room to grow as Atlanta, given that it is hemmed in by Baltimore/D.C. and especially NYC. It also doesn't help that it's at the confluence of three states, and therefore, at least three different levels of bureacracy. Atlanta has no other metro(s) in it's sphere, and is primarily Georgia-based. Throw in Philly proper's decade long slumber that has just now woken out of, and it's still remarkable the metro is as large as it is. Philly's "stagnant" growth is in line with the rest of the NE, and
Not sure what massive corporate presence has to do with massive MSA feel, but Philly has a massive corporate presence as well. There's Comcast, Aramark, Sunoco, Lincoln Financial, Pep Boys, every single major credit card company in Wilmington, QVC, Siemens, Johnson and Johnson, etc. just to go off the top of my head. I don't see this as relevant to massive metro area "feel", but Philly is no backwater in this regard.
Will Atlanta catch up to Philly? I'll go ahead and say yes. The South is the fastest growing region of the country, and Atlanta is at the epicenter. Will Atlanta rival Houston? That's a bit of a trickier question, as Atlanta's sprawl makes Houston look dense. Houston is also growing insanely, so this is much harder to answer.
Regardless of when Atlanta catches up to Philly, I still think Philly feels like a much larger metro--precisely because it's hemmed in by two other beasts. We here on C-D love to talk about MSAs, and CSAs, and urban areas, as if there is some imaginary line that applies to real life. Well, in real life, Philly is massive. At least on par with Atlanta, if we're being honest and not limiting ourselves to census designations, which are often political. Because every day in northern Delaware, I pass a sign that let's me know Baltimore is 70 miles to the south, NYC is less than 135 to the north, and Philly is only 30 miles to the north. There's commensurate traffic, and skylines, and density and all the other things brought up in this discussion to prove the Philly metro's size. If you were to apply Atlanta's area boundaries to Philly, you would be in both Baltimore and NYC, so this real life tangent is relevant to the discussion. There is no gap in urbanity. It's dense, the highways are narrow and packed, railroads mirror the highways, there are high-rises and skyscrapers all around, etc. The fact that Philly is winning this poll, despite what some may think, proves that this "feel" actually translates from real life to C-D
As you allude to, Philly doesn't have as much room to grow as Atlanta, given that it is hemmed in by Baltimore/D.C. and especially NYC. It also doesn't help that it's at the confluence of three states, and therefore, at least three different levels of bureacracy. Atlanta has no other metro(s) in it's sphere, and is primarily Georgia-based. Throw in Philly proper's decade long slumber that has just now woken out of, and it's still remarkable the metro is as large as it is. Philly's "stagnant" growth is in line with the rest of the NE, and
Not sure what massive corporate presence has to do with massive MSA feel, but Philly has a massive corporate presence as well. There's Comcast, Aramark, Sunoco, Lincoln Financial, Pep Boys, every single major credit card company in Wilmington, QVC, Siemens, Johnson and Johnson, etc. just to go off the top of my head. I don't see this as relevant to massive metro area "feel", but Philly is no backwater in this regard.
Will Atlanta catch up to Philly? I'll go ahead and say yes. The South is the fastest growing region of the country, and Atlanta is at the epicenter. Will Atlanta rival Houston? That's a bit of a trickier question, as Atlanta's sprawl makes Houston look dense. Houston is also growing insanely, so this is much harder to answer.
Regardless of when Atlanta catches up to Philly, I still think Philly feels like a much larger metro--precisely because it's hemmed in by two other beasts. We here on C-D love to talk about MSAs, and CSAs, and urban areas, as if there is some imaginary line that applies to real life. Well, in real life, Philly is massive. At least on par with Atlanta, if we're being honest and not limiting ourselves to census designations, which are often political. Because every day in northern Delaware, I pass a sign that let's me know Baltimore is 70 miles to the south, NYC is less than 135 to the north, and Philly is only 30 miles to the north. There's commensurate traffic, and skylines, and density and all the other things brought up in this discussion to prove the Philly metro's size. If you were to apply Atlanta's area boundaries to Philly, you would be in both Baltimore and NYC, so this real life tangent is relevant to the discussion. There is no gap in urbanity. It's dense, the highways are narrow and packed, railroads mirror the highways, there are high-rises and skyscrapers all around, etc. The fact that Philly is winning this poll, despite what some may think, proves that this "feel" actually translates from real life to C-D
Lol, seriously? People vote in these polls without actually having set foot in the cities in question all the time, or at the least without having had extensive experience with them. There are multiple polls here that ask the same question with the same cities with different poll results. I pretty much interpret these results as people voting for the bigger/denser metro in reality.
Yes. There are very few sections of highway in Metro Philadelphia that are more than three lanes each way, for better or worse. I don't foresee that changing, ever, either.
What exactly is this suppose to prove? That nobody takes the train and everyone comes from the same direction? The Roosevelt Blvd is a 12 lane death race highway that cuts right through the heart of north philly. It's terrible with traffic and something most Philadelphians truly despise.
The only thing I will say is the one picture someone posted of the buckhead skyline gives the illusion that there is some great city miles ahead, which in reality is not quite true but still someone might get the impression. You know what is a good way to get a grasp of the philly area? Taking one of the regional rail lines like the lansdale Doylestown line and literally going from town to town for an hour and a half without traffic.
Just Take a look at the Highway Count the lanes please
The number of Highway lanes really shouldnt be the barometer for this discussion. You also have to take into consideration Mass transit which Atlanta is sorely lacking, and the layout of the highway systems.
Mass Transit
NJ Transit which feeds NJ,Philly,NYC is the third biggest mass transit system in the country behind NYC and Long Island. Septa(Southeast Pennsylvania Transit Authority) is the 5th largest mass transit system in the country just behind Chicago. The Philly area is much much less reliant on the automobile as a means of transportation than Atlanta. I couldnt even find Atlanta mentioned in largest mass transit systems. I saw Austin,I saw Portland but no Atlanta.
Also the layout of the highway systems is much difefrent between the 2 regons.
Atlanta acts as a loop/knot. Looks like an absolute boondogglish nightmare to me.
Phillys highways run linear and are more spread out. From N to S you have Pennsylvania Turnpike,202,Schuylkill Expressway,US 30, 3, US 1, 95, US 13 over in NJ you have 130,295,and the NJ Turnpike.
The number of Highway lanes really shouldnt be the barometer for this discussion. You also have to take into consideration Mass transit which Atlanta is sorely lacking, and the layout of the highway systems.
Mass Transit
NJ Transit which feeds NJ,Philly,NYC is the third biggest mass transit system in the country behind NYC and Long Island. Septa(Southeast Pennsylvania Transit Authority) is the 5th largest mass transit system in the country just behind Chicago. The Philly area is much much less reliant on the automobile as a means of transportation than Atlanta. I couldnt even find Atlanta mentioned in largest mass transit systems. I saw Austin,I saw Portland but no Atlanta.
Also the layout of the highway systems is much difefrent between the 2 regons.
Atlanta acts as a loop/knot. Looks like an absolute boondogglish nightmare to me.
Phillys highways run linear and are more spread out. From N to S you have Pennsylvania Turnpike,202,Schuylkill Expressway,US 30, 3, US 1, 95, US 13 over in NJ you have 130,295,and the NJ Turnpike.
Atlanta's MARTA is ranked as the #8 transit system in the U.S. by ridership, according to a ranking I found on Wikipedia... A list that neither Portland nor Austin are on, btw.
Atlanta also carries a massive amount of through traffic, particularly on I-75 and I-85. This type of traffic typically bypasses metro Philly. It's a totally different set up.
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