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I found the statement that outside of 14th and U, DC is sterile to be interesting, too.
One of the largest collections of independent, local retail in DC can be found in Capitol Hill. All one has to do is take a walk (a real-life walk and not Google Street View. It is not the same effect) along Pennsylvania Ave from 2nd St SE to 7th St SE, then turn left up 7th Street toward Eastern Market. Once you've reached Eastern Market and explored that at 7th and North Carolina Ave SE, turn back down 7th Street and walk over to 8th Street and explore the Barracks Row strip (on 8th St from Pennsylvania Ave SE to I St SE) of restaurants, bars, and retail.
Independent, local retail in Capitol Hill/Eastern Market/Barracks Row is no joke.
In the Google Maps-defined area of Downtown DC, probably the best concentration of retail (local bars, independent restaurants, and stores) in downtown DC (that aren't chains) is along Connecticut Ave NW from Dupont Circle to Desales St. This part of downtown has some decent historic buildings, too.
There is a high concentration of nightclubs and bars in downtown DC, too. Just pull up Yelp, set the area to Downtown DC, and search for nightclubs. You can see how many pull up in the Google Maps-defined area. Do the same for bars.
Last edited by revitalizer; 07-17-2018 at 06:30 AM..
I found the statement that outside of 14th and U, DC is sterile to be interesting, too.
One of the largest collections of independent, local retail in DC can be found in Capitol Hill. All one has to do is take a walk (a real-life walk and not Google Street View. It is not the same effect) along Pennsylvania Ave from 2nd St SE to 7th St SE, then turn left up 7th Street toward Eastern Market. Once you've reached Eastern Market and explored that at 7th and North Carolina Ave SE, turn back down 7th Street and walk over to 8th Street and explore the Barracks Row strip (on 8th St from Pennsylvania Ave SE to I St SE) of restaurants, bars, and retail.
Independent, local retail in Capitol Hill/Eastern Market/Barracks Row is no joke.
In the Google Maps-defined area of Downtown DC, probably the best concentration of retail (local bars, independent restaurants, and stores) in downtown DC (that aren't chains) is along Connecticut Ave NW from Dupont Circle to Desales St.
There is a high concentration of nightclubs and bars in downtown DC, too. Just pull up Yelp, set the area to Downtown DC, and search for nightclubs. You can see how many pull up in the Google Maps-defined area. Do the same for bars.
Hmmm. I generally don't think of most of those areas as "downtown" DC save Connecticut Avenue leading to Dupont Circle. And I do find none of them sterile.
I generally think of "downtown," however, as the area from Judiciary Square to above the White House, encompassing D through I streets from 6th to 16th streets NW. Save for Chinatown, it seems somewhat devoid of life after business hours. There may be lots of watering holes, but I don't remember seeing lots of people strolling the streets the way I do in Dupont Circle, around 14th and U, in Georgetown or on Walnut Street where I live. I wonder whether that wasn't what the commenter had in mind?
Hmmm. I generally don't think of most of those areas as "downtown" DC save Connecticut Avenue leading to Dupont Circle. And I do find none of them sterile.
I generally think of "downtown," however, as the area from Judiciary Square to above the White House, encompassing D through I streets from 6th to 16th streets NW. Save for Chinatown, it seems somewhat devoid of life after business hours. There may be lots of watering holes, but I don't remember seeing lots of people strolling the streets the way I do in Dupont Circle, around 14th and U, in Georgetown or on Walnut Street where I live. I wonder whether that wasn't what the commenter had in mind?
I am not saying Google is right, but they define downtown as the CBD-only. Most of the travel guides do this, too. I view the neighborhoods that make up central DC to include downtown DC as well as Judiciary Square, Penn Quarter, Chinatown, City Center, etc, etc. I like the neighborhood-based designations outside of the CBD instead of labeling the whole thing "downtown". It encompasses too much area and the character is different in all these areas to treat it as a single unit that one can define.
I've also noticed that Google and the travel books have shrunk the "downtown" area over the past few years in favor of the neighborhood designations. I think this is good in that they are recognizing different character between the areas. About fifteen years ago or so, the area around Chinatown was more known as the old downtown and the area around Connecticut and K Street was more known as the new downtown. The travel books even had it that way. But, not anymore.
There is fluidity and change occurring with respect to DC's downtown and what people define it as. It isn't unified, unfortunately, which also leads to confusion on this board as well when people are discussing it (especially between locals and outsiders). For instance, the downtown DC I have in my head may not be the downtown DC a visitor is thinking of.
Case in point, the DC government, the business improvement districts in DC, and travel guides all define it differently. It certainly is not helpful.
Last edited by revitalizer; 07-17-2018 at 07:17 AM..
DC is a whole lot more than 14th and U street, all 4 quadrants of the city you can find urban street vibrancy. What are you talking about? To insinuate that's the only part of the city that is not sterile is asinine. Even if I concede to your point towards the downtown CBD, 65/70% of DC is nothing like what you described. It's not CLOSE to top 5 sterile, or sterile over all as a city, it's the center of a booming international metropolis. If your talking just the downtown there are some old bland buildings yes, but a lot of that is changing.
And the irony in the other cities you mentioned is the only ones I'd even think to choose to live in over DC would be NY or LA, the others would at best do about the same for me if not less.
I never said it was lol. I said for the stereotypically most dense/urban cities in the US, it feels the most sterile...at least IMO. But I specifically said it's better than basically any other city sans that aforementioned group.
And I'll definitely change my statement. I didn't really mean that away from 14th and U that everything is sterile. Just, idk the right term, but less exciting to me than similar neighborhoods of other similar cities? Idk really how to say it best. And everything is definitely personal opinion when it comes to preference of where to live. But I would never ever ever ever consider DC even close to the top of sterile downtowns. Many other cities are above it. Just its peer classically urban cities, IMO, are less sterile.
Charlotte is cool, but Uptown is definitely sterile. I hate that they basically bulldozed the entire place back in the 50's and 60's. No knock at Charlotte at all, but bad policies killed a lot of the character. Entire neighborhoods were erased and it got pretty corporate. Epicenter is a cool place to hang out with cool rooftop bars, but at the end of the day it's a glorified mall. Charlotte could've easily integrated the old with the new. I feel like Nashville is now wanting to kind of mirror Charlotte, but in really Charlotte should have mirrored more of Nashville.
Hard to really find anything in downtown Charlotte that matches King St (Charleston), Main St (Greenville), 2nd Ave or Broadway (Nashville), Broughton (Savannah), Patton St (Asheville), etc, etc. It's all so "new" and glassy. Doesn't mean it's ugly though, and while old vibes can't be brought back, there's been some great new additions like Romere Bearden Park.
And while Uptown may not fit the bill, there are some cool nearby neighborhoods such as Plaza Midwood and Noda.
Charlotte is cool, but Uptown is definitely sterile. I hate that they basically bulldozed the entire place back in the 50's and 60's. No knock at Charlotte at all, but bad policies killed a lot of the character. Entire neighborhoods were erased and it got pretty corporate. Epicenter is a cool place to hang out with cool rooftop bars, but at the end of the day it's a glorified mall. Charlotte could've easily integrated the old with the new. I feel like Nashville is now wanting to kind of mirror Charlotte, but in really Charlotte should have mirrored more of Nashville.
Hard to really find anything in downtown Charlotte that matches King St (Charleston), Main St (Greenville), 2nd Ave or Broadway (Nashville), Broughton (Savannah), Patton St (Asheville), etc, etc. It's all so "new" and glassy. Doesn't mean it's ugly though, and while old vibes can't be brought back, there's been some great new additions like Romere Bearden Park.
And while Uptown may not fit the bill, there are some cool nearby neighborhoods such as Plaza Midwood and Noda.
Two things:
Lots of other cities were worse offenders in the urban renewal department than Charlotte, but Charlotte didn't have as extensive of an urban fabric to begin with so the losses have had more of a visual impact on the cityscape. This is especially true when it comes to "regular" two-, three-, and four-story commercial structures as you alluded to in your mentions of the main drags of other Southern cities. Secondly, just about all of the historic structures that are left in Uptown blend in with the new stuff to such an extent that their historic character doesn't really stand out as much.
Because Charlotte boomed so much in the post-WWII period, I suspect that even if the city saved half of the historic structures in Uptown that it razed, Uptown would still probably have more of a sterile, new-ish quality about it, though obviously not to the same extent.
Lots of other cities were worse offenders in the urban renewal department than Charlotte, but Charlotte didn't have as extensive of an urban fabric to begin with so the losses have had more of a visual impact on the cityscape. This is especially true when it comes to "regular" two-, three-, and four-story commercial structures as you alluded to in your mentions of the main drags of other Southern cities. Secondly, just about all of the historic structures that are left in Uptown blend in with the new stuff to such an extent that their historic character doesn't really stand out as much.
Because Charlotte boomed so much in the post-WWII period, I suspect that even if the city saved half of the historic structures in Uptown that it razed, Uptown would still probably have more of a sterile, new-ish quality about it, though obviously not to the same extent.
It doesn't matter if there were worst offenders, that has nothing to do with Charlotte. I don't feel like "not having much" is an excuse either. Charlotte may have never been flooded with art deco but that wasn't that point. History =/= unsterile to me. It's more about environment, not whether a building is old or not.
It doesn't matter if there were worst offenders, that has nothing to do with Charlotte. I don't feel like "not having much" is an excuse either. Charlotte may have never been flooded with art deco but that wasn't that point. History =/= unsterile to me. It's more about environment, not whether a building is old or not.
I'm merely adding context to the discussion and there is value in that whether you agree or not. Sunbelt cities in general get picked on for razing a lot of their history but Northern cities actually razed a lot more of their historic urban fabric because they had more of it to begin with. I'm not making "excuses" but merely presenting facts. I would have expected this sort of response from other posters but not you. I'll make sure to limit my responses to your posts in the future since you seem to be overly sensitive.
Hmmm. I generally don't think of most of those areas as "downtown" DC save Connecticut Avenue leading to Dupont Circle. And I do find none of them sterile.
I generally think of "downtown," however, as the area from Judiciary Square to above the White House, encompassing D through I streets from 6th to 16th streets NW. Save for Chinatown, it seems somewhat devoid of life after business hours. There may be lots of watering holes, but I don't remember seeing lots of people strolling the streets the way I do in Dupont Circle, around 14th and U, in Georgetown or on Walnut Street where I live. I wonder whether that wasn't what the commenter had in mind?
DC is running into the same issue NYC does when defining “Downtown NYC vs. Midtown NYC vs. Uptown NYC” so we might as well just say “Core DC” when defining it just like we just say the island of Manhattan. Unlike most other American cities, NYC and DC’s urban development sprawls, for different reasons obviously, but nonetheless sprawls. NYC builds high-rises everywhere because it’s NYC and there is no space left on the island of Manhattan. DC builds 12-15 story mid-rise buildings everywhere because height limits limit capacity in the core. Both of these cities have space capacity issues.
There are entire new downtowns areas under construction in DC so the boundaries of downtown DC change annually. NOMA, Union Market, Northwest One, Mt. Vernon Triangle, Capital Riverfront, Buzzard Point, SW Wharf, Waterfront Station, and the SW Eco District are under construction. What does this mean for downtown DC?
I'm merely adding context to the discussion and there is value in that whether you agree or not. Sunbelt cities in general get picked on for razing a lot of their history but Northern cities actually razed a lot more of their historic urban fabric because they had more of it to begin with. I'm not making "excuses" but merely presenting facts. I would have expected this sort of response from other posters but not you. I'll make sure to limit my responses to your posts in the future since you seem to be overly sensitive.
I'm aware, but whether Houston, St Louis, or Detroit created more or less parking lots than Charlotte still has no effect on my view of Charlotte. I'm not criticizing Charlotte because it's a sunbelt, I live in the sunbelt, but that doesn't change much in the grand scheme to me, because again, it's not just about "brick building" vs "glass building". Nor did I say you were making an excuse, relax, I was speaking generally.
I know you like defending Charlotte and that's fine, but to me it doesn't have the charm or atmosphere that gives it flavor. Other city downtowns are corporate too, but it's easy to ignore it. Greenville, Chattanooga, and Asheville have towers yet still keep that quintessential Main St appeal, Nashville has the music and art atmosphere, W-S has an arty and upstart atmosphere, Columbia has influence from USC with Gervais and Five Points. When I'm in Charlotte, I can feel Duke Energy, BoA, Wells Fargo towering over me. In Nashville I didn't feel AT&T, Bridgestone, 5/3 having that effect. Even stategic placement of parking garages matter.
While I wasn't blown away or anything by Winston-Salem, 4th St and Trade St were pretty neat. Uptown lacks that. Also no water features makes it harder to stand out.
Noda and Plaza Midwood are neat, but they are outside downtown Charlotte. Yet rows like that are in downtown Greenville, Charleston, Nashville, Asheville, Savannah, Winston Salem, Columbia, Midtown Atlanta, etc. And it's not about old buildings, it's about atmosphere. Again Epicenter is neat, but it's also a mall, just in downtown form. Many of the restaurants and stores there you can find in a typical American suburban shopping center. It's a sterile attempt at a Charlotte version of a Beale St.
Charlotte is a great city overall, a little overrated, but also underrated on CD, and it's clear millennials are starting to flock there, but is Uptown sterile? It's just plain yes."I'll limit my responses", you sound like the sensitive one as I said nothing personal.
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