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$500,000 isn't some threshold that has been scientifically proven to be the point where a neighborhood goes from upper middle class to "posh." That was just a figure I threw out there in my comparison of upper middle class Queens neighborhoods to "posh" Manhattan neighborhoods to make a point. The point was that many of the Queens neighborhoods people were mentioning are not really "posh" at all since mean incomes weren't that much higher than median incomes. In other words, the people there are doing well, but few are balling out of control.
Manhattan is different. Much of it is "posh" despite lower median HHI because you have a lot of people doing not so well and a good number of people balling out of control. Hence, you get an income distribution that is heavily skewed to the right.
So $500,000 isn't some figure set in stone. The point was that neighborhoods we typically think of as "posh" are not affordable to the upper middle class. That's true not only in NYC, but also in most of the "creative class" capitals.
What do you consider the cut off for upper middle class?
I’ve heard of Chestnut Hill but I’m not too familiar with it or Main st. From what I understand it’s a wealthy neighborhood with giant houses and a lot of greenery.
Forest Hills has a few commercial strips. Austin street is probably the main commercial strip in Forest Hills. And then there’s also Queens blvd on the north side of the hood and Metropolitan Ave to the South. I wouldn’t call the latter 2 “cute” though, lol. But Austin st might be a good fit. I had a conversation with a Londoner in here one time that said Forest Hills + Austin st reminded them of a neighborhood in London, which I would think is a good thing.
Forest Hills Gardens is just a subsection of Forest Hills though. The rest of Forest Hills includes rowhomes, apartment buildings, twins/multi-dwellings, and even highrises with Manhattan views. That might make it differ a little from Chestnut Hill maybe?
If you watched the video kidphilly posted, you should be able to figure out the difference between Chestnut Hill and Forest Hills.
In that Google Street View you posted, I'd say that 71st Avenue is actually a little more like Chestnut Hill's Main Street*, Germantown Avenue, in appearance, if only for the presence of trees and some mock-Tudor commercial buildings. But the general area is far more densely built and far less bosky than Chestnut Hill, which has no multistory apartment buildings with more than four floors (and that four-floor condo is one of the newest structures in the neighborhood, completed two years ago). It's not until you cross under the LIRR tracks and exit the "town square" that you enter an area that resembles Chestnut Hill - and then, it's the less-affluent east side of the neighborhood (something all three Northwest Philly neighborhoods that together comprise pre-consolidation Germantown Township/Borough share is that their east sides are less affluent than their west sides). The larger houses and lots all lie west of Germantown Avenue.
Chestnut Hill is more uniformly suburban in character, even though its Main Street is quite urbane.
*I use "Main Street" in the generic sense, referring to a (usually) small-town or suburban shopping street or central business district. Most Main Streets in the Philadelphia area don't go by that name, though there is one that does; it's in the Manayunk section of the city.
What do you consider the cut off for upper middle class?
I know you asked BajanYankee that question, but I'd like to chime in with a definition here partly to demonstrate what I consider our skewed view of our socioeconomic class structure.
I would say that the middle class should take in the middle half of the income distribution, which is to say, from the 25th to the 75th percentile. According to this chart, that would encompass households earning anywhere from $30,001 to $111,160 in 2017.
Yet I suspect that no one earning less than $150,000 annually considers themselves part of the "upper class", and you probably don't find many people doing so until after you cross $200k annually. By the time a household makes $175,000 annually, it's in the top 10 percent of all households, which I wouldn't consider "middle" at all.
That has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with the fact that the Black population in Philadelphia is much larger than the Latino population. It is much more similar to Washington, DC in this regard than it is to NYC.
New York is several times larger than Philadelphia, but there is more AA/West Indian/Latino cultural cross-pollination here because the populations are much closer in number. The geographic size of the city doesn't make much of a difference either way.
I think it does have "Something" to do with it. Example one poster states that Boston is 48 Sq. Miles with around 685, 000* (According to a 2017 estimate...617,000 in 2010 Census.. May be higher today, or maybe lower) residents and the focus being the Latino and African/Caribbean population of the city's racial makeup. Let's take the same size of landmass from a few sections of Philly and they'd both would match up well. Not "Exactly " the same in demographics, but a pretty good match-up in terms of a multicultural city with certain demographics.
For example let's start with Northeast Philadelphia, which is 50.8 Sq. Miles and 528,000 residents. (Already this one city section is larger than Boston proper.) take away a NE neighborhood or two like Somerton and Parkwood in the NW and NE areas of the "Far Northeast", then add in a couple of neighborhoods like Fishtown and Port Richmond to the SE and SW areas of the "Lower NE" and you'd have a city roughly the same size with multiple demographics. The racial makeup would be people of Irish, Polish, German, Jewish, Italian, African American, Jamaican, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Brazilian, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Russian, Albanian, Indian, and African. Maybe a few more ethnicities I've missed. I reside in Lower Northeast and get my haircuts, workout, do my shopping, and eating out in many of the places in my area including Fishtown, Port Richmond, and Juniata Park.
I "Clearly" see all of these demographics in just this small section of town. There's still another 90 Sq. Miles of city left with over 900,000 residents., but I'll just focus on the area named. In the Lower NE area you'd still have the El Train above ground along Frankford/Kensington Avenues, and the Subway below ground along Broad St. If that area alone was Philadelphia or another city that has thousands of people who come in work or school, from the surrounding Suburbs,plus your tourist, you'd see a very compact and somewhat crowded muti-ethnic city. Much like Boston or San Francisco to a certain extent.
One more comparison.... Let's say we use the sections of West/Southwest, South Philly, and Center City Proper? What we would have again is another compact city with an above and below ground El, a Subway, Subway/Surface Trolleys, four universities, with three being within walking distance of each other, along with two hospitals between both campuses. You'd have the university section of the city along with a true downtown, high rises, two rivers and a creek, ferry service, along with another train line that crosses one river into the neighboring city/state via one of the two major bridges that get people there by car daily.
Also a major highway near the train station which runs multiple trains out of state, as well as the city, and suburban trains, and a line dedicated to the airport. Now the racial makeup in this city would consist of a large African American presence, along with a fairly decent sized African population from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Ghanna, Nigeria, Liberia, Congo, and Kenya. Then the Caribbean presence would be made up of Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Hatians, Antiguans, Barbadians, and West Indians. (That's just West/Southwest Philly alone) Add in the multi ethnic White populations, as well as the students as well as the Cambodian, Hmong, and Vietnamese Populations, and Mexicans in South Philly and add in the Center City residents, and tourist and I'm sure it matches Boston very well.
You mentioned how New York is several times larger than Philly and that's true, and it's also that and then some in comparison to Boston. Philadelphia itself is twice Boston's size in population and nearly three times the size in land mass. This makes my point in showing that I picked just one large section of the city for one example, and three smaller sections to show another, and both views still left out Germantown, North Philly, Roxboro, Mt. Airy, West Oak Lane and all of Uptown, along with enough land mass to make another Boston proper.
Oh., and nearly one million residents without touching the burbs. So....I guess if you have a city as compact as one as Boston's with their ethnic makeup all being in one area, then sure.
I think it does have "Something" to do with it. Example one poster states that Boston is 48 Sq. Miles with around 685, 000* (According to a 2017 estimate...617,000 in 2010 Census.. May be higher today, or maybe lower) residents and the focus being the Latino and African/Caribbean population of the city's racial makeup. Let's take the same size of landmass from a few sections of Philly and they'd both would match up well. Not "Exactly " the same in demographics, but a pretty good match-up in terms of a multicultural city with certain demographics.
For example let's start with Northeast Philadelphia, which is 50.8 Sq. Miles and 528,000 residents. (Already this one city section is larger than Boston proper.) take away a NE neighborhood or two like Somerton and Parkwood in the NW and NE areas of the "Far Northeast", then add in a couple of neighborhoods like Fishtown and Port Richmond to the SE and SW areas of the "Lower NE" and you'd have a city roughly the same size with multiple demographics. The racial makeup would be people of Irish, Polish, German, Jewish, Italian, African American, Jamaican, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Brazilian, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Russian, Albanian, Indian, and African. Maybe a few more ethnicities I've missed. I reside in Lower Northeast and get my haircuts, workout, do my shopping, and eating out in many of the places in my area including Fishtown, Port Richmond, and Juniata Park.
I "Clearly" see all of these demographics in just this small section of town. There's still another 90 Sq. Miles of city left with over 900,000 residents., but I'll just focus on the area named. In the Lower NE area you'd still have the El Train above ground along Frankford/Kensington Avenues, and the Subway below ground along Broad St. If that area alone was Philadelphia or another city that has thousands of people who come in work or school, from the surrounding Suburbs,plus your tourist, you'd see a very compact and somewhat crowded muti-ethnic city. Much like Boston or San Francisco to a certain extent.
One more comparison.... Let's say we use the sections of West/Southwest, South Philly, and Center City Proper? What we would have again is another compact city with an above and below ground El, a Subway, Subway/Surface Trolleys, four universities, with three being within walking distance of each other, along with two hospitals between both campuses. You'd have the university section of the city along with a true downtown, high rises, two rivers and a creek, ferry service, along with another train line that crosses one river into the neighboring city/state via one of the two major bridges that get people there by car daily.
Also a major highway near the train station which runs multiple trains out of state, as well as the city, and suburban trains, and a line dedicated to the airport. Now the racial makeup in this city would consist of a large African American presence, along with a fairly decent sized African population from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Ghanna, Nigeria, Liberia, Congo, and Kenya. Then the Caribbean presence would be made up of Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Hatians, Antiguans, Barbadians, and West Indians. (That's just West/Southwest Philly alone) Add in the multi ethnic White populations, as well as the students as well as the Cambodian, Hmong, and Vietnamese Populations, and Mexicans in South Philly and add in the Center City residents, and tourist and I'm sure it matches Boston very well.
You mentioned how New York is several times larger than Philly and that's true, and it's also that and then some in comparison to Boston. Philadelphia itself is twice Boston's size in population and nearly three times the size in land mass. This makes my point in showing that I picked just one large section of the city for one example, and three smaller sections to show another, and both views still left out Germantown, North Philly, Roxboro, Mt. Airy, West Oak Lane and all of Uptown, along with enough land mass to make another Boston proper.
Oh., and nearly one million residents without touching the burbs. So....I guess if you have a city as compact as one as Boston's with their ethnic makeup all being in one area, then sure.
Boston is more like New York.
FWIW, I hadn't known until very recently that you were African-American too, and now I know you live in the Northeast - which is home to one in every three Philadelphians and has a population just slightly larger than my hometown of Kansas City, Mo. (Which means that were it ever to split off from the rest of the city - something some Northeast residents agitated for in the 1980s and 1990s - it would instantly become one of the nation's 50 largest cities and Pennsylvania's second largest in terms of population. It might even kick Philadelphia out of the top 10, depending on where its remainder stood relative to San Diego and San Antonio.)
That multiculti Philadelphia you just described is a relatively recent creation, just like the multiethnic Boston is. Neither existed when I moved from the latter to the former in 1983. Back then, the Northeast still consisted almost entirely of white ethnics, especially the city workers who moved there because they had to live in the city until it dropped the residency requirement for its workers in the 1990s but didn't want to live near all those black folks. The transformation began with the movement of Hispanics into Juniata Park, which technically lies on the wrong side of Frankford Creek to be considered part of Northeast Philadelphia but gets lumped in with it anyway, in the 1980s, and has accelerated since then.
But percentages are what they are, and our percentage of African-American residents outpaces those of both New York City and Boston, while our percentages of African, Caribbean and Hispanic residents trail them.
We might, however, want to revisit this subject a decade or so hence.
(One minor geographic nit: The Broad Street Subway does not even enter the Northeast. It runs through North Philadelphia for its entire length north of Race-Vine station. Its Northeast Spur, aka "the Boulevard subway," is Philadelphia's answer to the Second Avenue Subway, or was until a piece of the New York route finally opened last year. Whether the Northeast Spur will ever get built is very much an open question; as of now, signs point to no.)
I think it does have "Something" to do with it. Example one poster states that Boston is 48 Sq. Miles with around 685, 000* (According to a 2017 estimate...617,000 in 2010 Census.. May be higher today, or maybe lower) residents and the focus being the Latino and African/Caribbean population of the city's racial makeup. Let's take the same size of landmass from a few sections of Philly and they'd both would match up well. Not "Exactly " the same in demographics, but a pretty good match-up in terms of a multicultural city with certain demographics.
For example let's start with Northeast Philadelphia, which is 50.8 Sq. Miles and 528,000 residents. (Already this one city section is larger than Boston proper.) take away a NE neighborhood or two like Somerton and Parkwood in the NW and NE areas of the "Far Northeast", then add in a couple of neighborhoods like Fishtown and Port Richmond to the SE and SW areas of the "Lower NE" and you'd have a city roughly the same size with multiple demographics. The racial makeup would be people of Irish, Polish, German, Jewish, Italian, African American, Jamaican, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Brazilian, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Russian, Albanian, Indian, and African. Maybe a few more ethnicities I've missed. I reside in Lower Northeast and get my haircuts, workout, do my shopping, and eating out in many of the places in my area including Fishtown, Port Richmond, and Juniata Park.
I "Clearly" see all of these demographics in just this small section of town. There's still another 90 Sq. Miles of city left with over 900,000 residents., but I'll just focus on the area named. In the Lower NE area you'd still have the El Train above ground along Frankford/Kensington Avenues, and the Subway below ground along Broad St. If that area alone was Philadelphia or another city that has thousands of people who come in work or school, from the surrounding Suburbs,plus your tourist, you'd see a very compact and somewhat crowded muti-ethnic city. Much like Boston or San Francisco to a certain extent.
One more comparison.... Let's say we use the sections of West/Southwest, South Philly, and Center City Proper? What we would have again is another compact city with an above and below ground El, a Subway, Subway/Surface Trolleys, four universities, with three being within walking distance of each other, along with two hospitals between both campuses. You'd have the university section of the city along with a true downtown, high rises, two rivers and a creek, ferry service, along with another train line that crosses one river into the neighboring city/state via one of the two major bridges that get people there by car daily.
Also a major highway near the train station which runs multiple trains out of state, as well as the city, and suburban trains, and a line dedicated to the airport. Now the racial makeup in this city would consist of a large African American presence, along with a fairly decent sized African population from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Ghanna, Nigeria, Liberia, Congo, and Kenya. Then the Caribbean presence would be made up of Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Hatians, Antiguans, Barbadians, and West Indians. (That's just West/Southwest Philly alone) Add in the multi ethnic White populations, as well as the students as well as the Cambodian, Hmong, and Vietnamese Populations, and Mexicans in South Philly and add in the Center City residents, and tourist and I'm sure it matches Boston very well.
You mentioned how New York is several times larger than Philly and that's true, and it's also that and then some in comparison to Boston. Philadelphia itself is twice Boston's size in population and nearly three times the size in land mass. This makes my point in showing that I picked just one large section of the city for one example, and three smaller sections to show another, and both views still left out Germantown, North Philly, Roxboro, Mt. Airy, West Oak Lane and all of Uptown, along with enough land mass to make another Boston proper.
Oh., and nearly one million residents without touching the burbs. So....I guess if you have a city as compact as one as Boston's with their ethnic makeup all being in one area, then sure.
Boston is more like New York.
Boston’s urban area doesn’t stop at city limits..city limits are what they are for a variety of reasons...Cambridge, Somerville, Brookline etc etc are all part of the urban area and on the city subway lines...Boston urban area and philly urban area are comparable...Cambridge, Somerville and Brookline alone bring the urban area to 930,000 people in 64 sq miles..the urban area extends beyond that...Cambridge and somerville are very diverse and not in Boston proper...philly wins in my eyes for looking more like nyc architecturally..Boston can’t be viewed on a population list or by coming and hanging in Faneuil Hall..
I think it does have "Something" to do with it. Example one poster states that Boston is 48 Sq. Miles with around 685, 000* (According to a 2017 estimate...617,000 in 2010 Census.. May be higher today, or maybe lower) residents and the focus being the Latino and African/Caribbean population of the city's racial makeup. Let's take the same size of landmass from a few sections of Philly and they'd both would match up well. Not "Exactly " the same in demographics, but a pretty good match-up in terms of a multicultural city with certain demographics.
For example let's start with Northeast Philadelphia, which is 50.8 Sq. Miles and 528,000 residents. (Already this one city section is larger than Boston proper.) take away a NE neighborhood or two like Somerton and Parkwood in the NW and NE areas of the "Far Northeast", then add in a couple of neighborhoods like Fishtown and Port Richmond to the SE and SW areas of the "Lower NE" and you'd have a city roughly the same size with multiple demographics. The racial makeup would be people of Irish, Polish, German, Jewish, Italian, African American, Jamaican, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Brazilian, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Russian, Albanian, Indian, and African. Maybe a few more ethnicities I've missed. I reside in Lower Northeast and get my haircuts, workout, do my shopping, and eating out in many of the places in my area including Fishtown, Port Richmond, and Juniata Park.
I "Clearly" see all of these demographics in just this small section of town. There's still another 90 Sq. Miles of city left with over 900,000 residents., but I'll just focus on the area named. In the Lower NE area you'd still have the El Train above ground along Frankford/Kensington Avenues, and the Subway below ground along Broad St. If that area alone was Philadelphia or another city that has thousands of people who come in work or school, from the surrounding Suburbs,plus your tourist, you'd see a very compact and somewhat crowded muti-ethnic city. Much like Boston or San Francisco to a certain extent.
One more comparison.... Let's say we use the sections of West/Southwest, South Philly, and Center City Proper? What we would have again is another compact city with an above and below ground El, a Subway, Subway/Surface Trolleys, four universities, with three being within walking distance of each other, along with two hospitals between both campuses. You'd have the university section of the city along with a true downtown, high rises, two rivers and a creek, ferry service, along with another train line that crosses one river into the neighboring city/state via one of the two major bridges that get people there by car daily.
Also a major highway near the train station which runs multiple trains out of state, as well as the city, and suburban trains, and a line dedicated to the airport. Now the racial makeup in this city would consist of a large African American presence, along with a fairly decent sized African population from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Ghanna, Nigeria, Liberia, Congo, and Kenya. Then the Caribbean presence would be made up of Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Hatians, Antiguans, Barbadians, and West Indians. (That's just West/Southwest Philly alone) Add in the multi ethnic White populations, as well as the students as well as the Cambodian, Hmong, and Vietnamese Populations, and Mexicans in South Philly and add in the Center City residents, and tourist and I'm sure it matches Boston very well.
You mentioned how New York is several times larger than Philly and that's true, and it's also that and then some in comparison to Boston. Philadelphia itself is twice Boston's size in population and nearly three times the size in land mass. This makes my point in showing that I picked just one large section of the city for one example, and three smaller sections to show another, and both views still left out Germantown, North Philly, Roxboro, Mt. Airy, West Oak Lane and all of Uptown, along with enough land mass to make another Boston proper.
Oh., and nearly one million residents without touching the burbs. So....I guess if you have a city as compact as one as Boston's with their ethnic makeup all being in one area, then sure.
Boston is more like New York.
Nah 45% of the black population in Boston is West Indian compared to 10% in Philly and 20% of Boston is Latino. What our saying is a HUUUGE stretch. The cities surrounding bosyon like Everett Malden randolph and other have a more heavily west Indian black population or are more Hispanic than Boston. 44/45% of Everett and Malden ate foreign born and they're npth majority minority. That's another 100k people right there...and the there's Lynn 95k people and 65% minority almost all central American and Jamaican...
29% of Boston is foreign Born 15% of Philadelphia is foreign born so despite being 1/3 the land area of Philly, Boston has an almost identical number of foreign born people. The multi-ethnic world argument is not one Philly will win over Boston any more than Boston would win an African American argument v Philadelphia. It's just not realistic. We're talking about culture, you can't make that up with scale IMO. You could say Philly is more like NYC in scale but global diversity? It doesn't really hold water. We're not talking about the Nigerians and Ethiopians in Boston in respect to its African population. Boston city limits alone has more west indian/African blacks than Philly does, not including the adjacent urban cities.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 03-14-2019 at 05:45 AM..
Bostons urban core would at least include Brookline Cambridge Quincy Lynn Malden Everett Revere Chelsea and Medford. That's an additional 580k people...none of thosneplaves is at all suburban and a few are denser municipalities than Phi.
Bostons urban core would at least include Brookline Cambridge Quincy Lynn Malden Everett Revere Chelsea and Medford. That's an additional 580k people...none of thosneplaves is at all suburban and a few are denser municipalities than Phi.
Forgot about Somerville so 660,000. And if you are counting Brookline, Watertown Arlington and Winthrop also have densities above 8,000 ppsm so that’s 760,000 plus Boston is 1,430,000 and I’m sure there is a town or two that’s missing. (Medford for one but it’s only ~7,000 ppsm) Boston has almost an identical urban population at 134 sq miles as Philly.
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