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It wasn't a selective choice as if I went out looking for immigrant friends. I wasn't closed to having them, but it was not something I actively sought, as I said. It was more like I made one that led to another and another, etc. And in terms of those I worked with, that was not a choice at all.
I meant selection bias in the sense that using yourself as the sample is off. People that end of moving to Mexico from Columbus are probably more likely to have foreign friends domestically (regardless of which came first- the personality trait was there). In the same way that concluding that most people think LeBron James is the greatest player in the league by asking a bunch of Clevelanders. Not really the best representation of the whole.
You need to moderate the conclusions of your post #154. No one's saying that Cleveland and St. Louis aren't important Midwestern cities, possessing formidable business, cultural and social assets.
However, within the strict parameters of the OP's opening criteria (specifically focused on the global importance of Midwestern cities other than Chicago, Detroit, and Minneapolis) these two cities aren't the clear winners you're claiming them to be.
First of all, let's refrain from debating certain things, because they only obfuscate the OP's criteria and sidetrack the entire thread:
(a) Chicago, Detroit, and Minneapolis. Red John made this very clear, yet several homers persist.
(b) MSA populations, GDP's, rates of growth, etc. Important, yes, but only if tied in with Red John's criteria.
(c) The global significance of any of the Midwestern poll cities, overall. None of them are.
Second, let's quit slinging terms so loosely around like global, international, world class, world renowned like the mere mention of any one of them makes whatever's being referred to automatically all that important or the overall city's international presence all that significant.
Third, let's consider that Red John's original post, itself, was asking too much at one time. All good questions, but without focus. Each of his four major grouping could have served as its own thread.
(For example, right now just count the entries devoted to "immigration"; this particular discussion, alone, warrants it own thread.)
Well, I can't really tell where you're going with this. The OP, Red John, has an initial post that outlined some of these and by that post, Cleveland and St. Louis seem to be clear winners--but not so clear that they're something like heads and shoulders above any of the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John
Outside of the Midwestern Big 3 of Greater Chicago, Greater Detroit, and the Greater Minneapolis/Saint Paul areas, what is the next most diverse, international, global, and cosmopolitan city of the Midwest?
Criteria:
- Diverse (racial diversity and ethnic diversity)
- Global (pertaining to business and commerce, a global economic driver, global industries, global innovations, global research, global institutions of higher learning or research)
- International (culturally, socially, or politically has some clout, brand, or image outside of the United States; a public figure with global reach, an event with global attendance or viewership, an institution with global recognition, a team or club with global following, ability to draw immigrants and tourists from overseas, so on and so forth)
- Cosmopolitan (a population that seemingly is knitted together from everywhere; elsewhere from the same state, elsewhere from the same region, elsewhere from the same country, elsewhere from the same continent, elsewhere from the same planet, there are "strong" social network or cultural aspects that tie the population of the city together with the rest of the world via travel, sister cities, ethnic enclaves, innovation of fusion foods from the world on over, general populace is well aware of the world outside of the United States, demonstrates knowledgeable instincts, travelers, live-and-let-live vibe, higher culture, sophistication)
All 4 things are different. I'm not entirely sure if this is the proper way to define each of the four, but I took a stab at it and want to keep that as the framework for responses to this thread.
So outside of the Big 3 in the Midwest, what city is next to best demonstrate the factors mentioned above?
If you want to include Pittsburgh or Louisville or somewhere on the border of the Midwest, then do so, I guess, my take is that the more cities discussed in the thread, the more interesting the debate.
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Diverse: racial and ethnic diversity has been discussed to some extent. Vast majority of these cities/metros are overwhelming white with a significant black population in and near the urban center and scatterings of other people, though some of them have sizable Hispanic populations as well. There are some cities/metros that are notably less diverse on this metric like Louisville for instance, but no one is a clear winner and there's a lot of back and forth on more fine-grained diversity like people descended from very different parts of Europe. In this case, there isn't really an overarching winner.
Global: Global economic businesses which I used headquarters of international companies as a proxy for. I don't think that's too out of line. Some cities do particularly well in this such as Cincinnati though most of the cities have some notables and I think Cleveland is actually a little bit weaker than others on this one, but I might be wrong. Another part of this was global institutions of higher learning and research. For universities, Pittsburgh does particularly well and other cities that would also rank favorably are St. Louis, Columbus, and Cleveland. Cleveland also has a globally important research institution with regards to the Cleveland Clinic.
International: Pretty much the only US major sport with a very wide-ranging global following is basketball. Soccer is an even more international sport, but scant few people in other parts of the world follow MLS. The only cities here with teams are Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis and Cleveland is currently much more favored. There's relatively little else in any of these cities that are particularly well known globally and commonly attributed to these respective cities, though perhaps you can fill in that blank for me?
Cosmopolitan: None of these cities are particularly great at this. I guess you can take a look at the foreign born population numbers as a proxy for a bit of this in which case it's pretty much that range posted earlier of Columbus to Cleveland that were roughly the same range, but a pretty big drop-off when it comes to Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and Louisville.
So with all of these, I think it edges pretty much to Cleveland, but maybe St. Louis for its size and somewhat busier airport (this factor wasn't mentioned, but I think is relevant). This isn't a blowout in terms of winning by any significant magnitude, but rather a slow add up of factors here and there that sort of puts it a bit above. Let me know what parts you don't find too sensible.
I would say educational attainment and cultural institutions are a better measurement of a cosmopolitan city than foreign-born population. Taking in a lot of farmers, goatherders, subsistence hunters and well diggers does not a cosmopolitan city make.
I would say educational attainment and cultural institutions are a better measurement of a cosmopolitan city than foreign-born population. Taking in a lot of farmers, goatherders, subsistence hunters and well diggers does not a cosmopolitan city make.
OK, but immigrants to the U.S. tend not to be "goat-herders and subsistence hunters". They tend to be engineers, nurses, accountants and the like. Not too many goatherders moving to Ohio, but I bet you there are a fair amount of, say, Indian doctors.
OK, but immigrants to the U.S. tend not to be "goat-herders and subsistence hunters". They tend to be engineers, nurses, accountants and the like. Not too many goatherders moving to Ohio, but I bet you there are a fair amount of, say, Indian doctors.
In 2014, 29 percent (10.5 million) of the 36.7 million immigrants ages 25 and older had a bachelor's degree or higher, compared to 30 percent of native-born adults. Notably, the share of college-educated immigrants is much higher*—44 percent—among those who entered the country since 2010. On the other end of the educational spectrum, 30 percent of immigrants lacked a high school diploma or General Educational Development (GED) certificate versus 10 percent of their native-born counterparts.
Seems like you either get a doctor, or a goat herder. Not much in the middle.
So is the 30% without even a high school education. 3x the native born average. Proportionally, much bigger difference than between those with college degrees.
I would say educational attainment and cultural institutions are a better measurement of a cosmopolitan city than foreign-born population. Taking in a lot of farmers, goatherders, subsistence hunters and well diggers does not a cosmopolitan city make.
I tend to agree. From definition I have found at least: adjective/ familiar with and at ease in many different countries and cultures. (Ex.: worldly, worldly-wise, experienced, cultivated, cultured, sophisticated, suave, urbane, glamorous, fashionable, stylish
Now at some point, I need to look specifically at the business density of these places and pull up more stats, but there's one thing I will say. Statistically, even if, on looking on groups that aren't Central European, Cleveland lags behind from a numbers standpoint compared to the other cities, and that is certainly true according to the stats that have been pulled, Cleveland's ethnic groups, European, Asian and otherwise, tend to be grouped somewhat close together. Now maybe that's true in Minneapolis and Detroit also, but it's certainly true in Cleveland, and it does enhance their visibility within the community.
From a quick count, even taking out other restaurants that reflected the diversity of the neighborhood (Ethiopian, Jewish, Slovenian, etc.), there's over 20 Asian restaurants AND 20 shops, including a 115,000 sq. foot mall (Asian Town Center), in a 10 block area. Just this past weekend, there was an Asian Festival in the area that had over 50,000 attendees, and they are continuing a successful monthly summer night market from last year, that is also very well attended. I'm not saying this to compare to Minneapolis or Detroit, because honestly, it has no bearing on my life whether they have more significant things like that, just that those are nice features to have.
Now, we can beat stats to death all we want, but ultimately, sometimes you have to look at things based on feel. This is an honest question. Let's say you didn't know anything about stats, or didn't do any research, or anything, but first visited Cleveland, Pittsburgh and St. Louis. Then, you visited Mineapolis (and let's also say Detroit). Then, to finish off, you visited Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami. Regardless of other factors that you, the average joe, didn't research before or after, which tier would you be more likely to group Detroit and Minneapolis with: Cities like Cleveland, St. Louis and Pittsburgh? Or, cities like Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami.
So is the 30% without even a high school education. 3x the native born average. Proportionally, much bigger difference than between those with college degrees.
Again, immigrants aren't "goatherders". That sounds like some Trump soundbite.
They're generally professionals or skilled trades.
Again, immigrants aren't "goatherders". That sounds like some Trump soundbite.
They're generally professionals or skilled trades.
Saying they're doctors is a stereotype too.
Maybe post some studies or stats or something other than speculation.
By the way, I think goats are awesome.
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