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@u146, I'm not "basing" St. Louis' supposed southern-Ness on its black population. However, I've admitted that I've never been to St. Louis; it's quite possible that if I actually go to the city, I'd see some things that make me feel differently. Being that I'm not from the Midwest or Missouri, my only point of reference is with St. Louisans I've met--they all just happen to be black. Not my fault...
Also, it's okay for you to call places Southern because of the black residents, but not when someone else does? You're notorious on this board for using blacks as either a sole reason or premium reason a place is Southern...
@kbank, right! In urban VA (Nova/RVA/Tidewater), people from St. Louis both sound and appear very Southern. They don't sound like us, and I know you and I aren't the only Virginians who have noticed this or feel this way. When I was a teen, my neighbor's nephew came a couple summers from the Lou. He was cool, but we definitely noticed he sounded "country" to our ears; the drawl was crazy thick...
Just ran down a list of St. Louis celebrities:
Kimora Lee Simmons, Jeremy Maclin, Bradley Beal, do not sound Southern, so that gives credence to the fact that all black St. Louisans don't sound Southern...
Georgia Frontiere, Randy Orton, the Wallace family, they all do sound Southern, which supports a notion that 'some' white St. Louisans DO sound Southern...
St. Louis may be mostly Northern, but accent-wise, it is extraordinarily mixed, and I think varies based on the specific St. Louisan you speak to...
Don't take my inventory. I've never used blacks as a sole reason for classifying a place as Southern. Most people base it on the white population. Whites in St. Louis do not sound Southern. You're right, you're not qualifieD to judge St. Louis because you've never been there. You know nothing about the city. St. Louis is not mixed accent wise. Professional linguists group it in with the North. You have no idea what you're talking About.
@u146, I'm not "basing" St. Louis' supposed southern-Ness on its black population. However, I've admitted that I've never been to St. Louis; it's quite possible that if I actually go to the city, I'd see some things that make me feel differently. Being that I'm not from the Midwest or Missouri, my only point of reference is with St. Louisans I've met--they all just happen to be black. Not my fault...
Also, it's okay for you to call places Southern because of the black residents, but not when someone else does? You're notorious on this board for using blacks as either a sole reason or premium reason a place is Southern...
@kbank, right! In urban VA (Nova/RVA/Tidewater), people from St. Louis both sound and appear very Southern. They don't sound like us, and I know you and I aren't the only Virginians who have noticed this or feel this way. When I was a teen, my neighbor's nephew came a couple summers from the Lou. He was cool, but we definitely noticed he sounded "country" to our ears; the drawl was crazy thick...
Just ran down a list of St. Louis celebrities:
Kimora Lee Simmons, Jeremy Maclin, Bradley Beal, do not sound Southern, so that gives credence to the fact that all black St. Louisans don't sound Southern...
Georgia Frontiere, Randy Orton, the Wallace family, they all do sound Southern, which supports a notion that 'some' white St. Louisans DO sound Southern...
St. Louis may be mostly Northern, but accent-wise, it is extraordinarily mixed, and I think varies based on the specific St. Louisan you speak to...
Randy Orton doesn't sound Southern at all. You have no conception of what a Southern accent sounds like. Please stop before you really embarrass yourself.
I don't like that line though...most of Missouri should be north of it and all but the Cincy suburbs in Kentucky should be South of it. FYI, this solidly contradicts Murksiderock's theories. https://www.google.com/search?q=sout...2WflBpuBFCM%3A This should shut up all the people claiming St. Louisians have a Southern accent. It has its own unique dialect with some Chicago and Midland influence. No Southern influence.
I don't like that line though...most of Missouri should be north of it and all but the Cincy suburbs in Kentucky should be South of it. FYI, this solidly contradicts Murksiderock's theories. https://www.google.com/search?q=sout...2WflBpuBFCM%3A This should shut up all the people claiming St. Louisians have a Southern accent. It has its own unique dialect with some Chicago and Midland influence. No Southern influence.
The Mason-Dixon line most definitely would have cut Missouri in half (at best), with St. Louis being spared. Missouri, though never officially a Confederate state, was a slave state under the Missouri compromise, so the southern influence is VERY palpable outstate (still more Midwestern overall). The corridor between Columbia and Jefferson City was known as "Little Dixie" in fact. St. Louis, however, which is a focus of this thread, has always, always been an urban, cosmopolitan bastion in contrast to its surrounding region. St. Louis is older than the United States, so it developed an urbane and enlightened culture very early on, which kept the city insulated from its hinterlands, especially as the city flourished alongside its northeastern counterparts.
The Mason-Dixon line most definitely would have cut Missouri in half (at best), with St. Louis being spared. Missouri, though never officially a Confederate state, was a slave state under the Missouri compromise, so the southern influence is VERY palpable outstate (still more Midwestern overall). The corridor between Columbia and Jefferson City was known as "Little Dixie" in fact. St. Louis, however, which is a focus of this thread, has always, always been an urban, cosmopolitan bastion in contrast to its surrounding region. St. Louis is older than the United States, so it developed an urbane and enlightened culture very early on, which kept the city insulated from its hinterlands, especially as the city flourished alongside its northeastern counterparts.
Back in the time of the Civil War the Mason Dixon line would've split the state in half I agree. Today that line lies in the southern third of the state though. I've driven Central and the Eastern portion of the state many times so I know roughly where the changeover occurs. I'm aware of Little Dixie. My late grandmother was from there. Her speech patterns were Southern influenced but the accent was Midwestern more than anything else. I disagree that it cuts the state in half too. There is a transition zone between the Midwest and South south of U.S. 50 and ending halfway between u.s. 50 and U.S. 60. That to me is where the Mason Dixon line runs. Only the southern third of Missouri is actually Southern. The rest, which is the majority of the state, is Midwestern with Southern influences. It doesn't just start being completely Southern below KC, Jefferson City, and St. Louis. It's a gradual transition over to the South below these cities. Missouri is best categorized as a Midwestern state with Southern influences, even though the Southern third is actually Southern.
I'll maybe disagree that Baltimore's dialect is unilaterally southern. I do agree that it has more identifiable southern traits than the St. Louis accent, but Baltimore does have some distinct northeastern linguistic traits too, especially among the Jewish community.
Ultimately, both of these cities have varying degrees of influence from different regions, and both are distinctly unique in relation to the rest of their respective states.
Proof? I've never heard this. When I lived there, Jews I met sounded either accent free or had the typical Baltimore White accent. That doesn't even make sense unless by Northeastern you mean PHILLY influences. Which, btw Philly is not a Northern accent and has both North and South characteristics.
What are these NE traits heard in the Baltimore Jewish accent that apparently is a thing? And who said Baltimore has a Southern accent? Most of us recognize that it is a Midland accent with Southern influence unlike St. Louis which is a Midland accent with NORTHERN influence.
Nice reach, but no. Nancy Pelosi has a generic accent. Also, where does snoop sound like she's from? Where outside of Baltimore does Snoop sound like? I'll wait for video proof.
No. Generic accents do not have o fronting or glide deletion. Pelosi has both. She sounds like a milder version of Miss Kay from Duck Dynasty.
And Pearson doesn't have Southern traits you say? I guess let's ignore the drawl, the way she says her I's like "ah", shall we? Typical Northern girl speech you say? Come on.
The fact that Baltimore blacks say "thangs" instead of "tings" like Whites do is proof that compared to Whites there they sound Southern
No. Generic accents do not have o fronting or glide deletion. Pelosi has both. She sounds like a milder version of Miss Kay from Duck Dynasty.
And Pearson doesn't have Southern traits you say? I guess let's ignore the drawl, the way she says her I's like "ah", shall we? Typical Northern girl speech you say? Come on.
The fact that Baltimore blacks say "thangs" instead of "tings" like Whites do is proof that compared to Whites there they sound Southern
Blacks don't say thang in Baltimore. That doesn't even sound right trying to pronounce. You're definitely reaching for the stars now. If Chicago sounds more southern than Baltimore, do you really want to debate the blaccent of st Louis?
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