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Rivers didn't catch fire routinely even back in the bad old days before we cleaned up the air and water — in fact, the 1969 Cuyahoga River fire gave the Clean Water Act an added push because it was such an unusual event, one that underscored just how badly industry had fouled our waterways.
But yes, that fire did help create the image of Cleveland as "the mistake on the lake," a moniker it has worked diligently to bury.
As for Boston: Most of those riots didn't involve white folks trying to keep Blacks out of a place, at least not in the 1970s. (Plenty of communities had such riots before that time, from Tulsa, Okla., to Little Rock, Ark., to Levittown, Pa.)
When I moved from Boston to Philadelphia in 1983, my initial impression was that Blacks had it better here. They certainly play a much bigger role in city politics than they do in Boston: Philly has had three Black mayors while Boston has just gotten its first, by appointment. But I've found that racism can be just as bad here as there. I even wrote an essay in which I drew a parallel between the one Boston neighborhood I refused to set foot in when I lived there and its Philadelphia analogue (the two were also similar in ethnic makeup and socioeconomic status):
From what I hear, Southie today in no way resembles the Southie of the 1970s. Old Fishtown still lingers on even as New Fishtown colonizes it.
But a lot of the Italians who populated South Philadelphia were as racist as the Irish who settled in Fishtown. They just weren't as in-your-face about it. Immigration, largely from Mexico and Southeast Asia, has changed the picture there.
Rivers in industrial cities may not have routinely caught on fire, but oil slick fires weren't uncommon in them either. Cleveland's 1969 ''fire'' wasn't an anomaly there or in several industrial cities' rivers; the '60 Cleveland fire was the one that got attention, due to its timing.
The Cleveland ''burning river'' story was a small little paragraph or so in Time Magazine some six weeks after the June 1969 incident; the photo in this Time blurb was from a larger 1954 fire because the 1969 incident wasn't much of anything (hard to believe the media would mislead like that for a story).
However, being 1969, the last year in a decade of social movements, including the Environmental one (ie. Rachel Carson's Silent Spring (1962) is an example) as the Time story resonated on the need to address water pollution as air pollution was a bigger deal at the time (Clean Air Act, 1970). The Cuyahoga River flows thru a now U.S. National Park, offering fishing, kayaking, and white water rafting before it twists and winds thru Cleveland's Industrial Flats, an industrial valley so vast that Winston Churchill knew the Allies would win WWII when he saw it first-hand. Prior to the 1970s this industry created a lot of water and air polllution but afforded a living to Cleveland's working class immigrants, especially those from Eastern Europe.
So, as Cleveland took a hit to its image, the 1969 fire was a catalyst for the Clean Water Act (1972) and the at the time Cleveland Mayor Carl B Stokes (America's 1st ''big city'' black mayor and brother of long-time local U S Congressman Louis Stokes) was instrumental in saving and preserving the Cuyahoga River. Today, this same river has vastly recovered with fish, recreational uses, and is now a part of a U.S. National Park and Cleveland has come to somewhat embrace this now 52 y.o. hit to its reputation with things like a Burning River Festival and local brewer Great Lakes offering a Burning River Ale.
The ''burning river'' jokes, part of the whole 1970s "Cleveland jokes'' era, was started by former Clevelander Jack Hanrahan, a writer for the 1960s comedy show Laugh-In; ''Polish'' jokes needed to go so instead of Poland being the punch-line, Hanrahan used Cleveland. But the 'Cleveland jokes'' are now largely a thing of the past as the city tries to burnish a new image and peoples' memories fade (or, literally, die out). Clevelanders can laugh at themselves but, unfortunately people took theses jokes seriously and some continue to do so (that Cleveland Tourism Video from 2007 or so didn't help) and Cleveland is a top cultural city that people, instead of looking down their noses at, should go and enjoy for a weekend (lots of old industrial fortunes gave this city a superior cultural and architectural legacy...think John D Rockefeller for starters) and the city has morphed into a great restaurant town as well.
Oh, and another legacy of the 1969 river ''fire'' is Randy Newman's 1972 "Burn On'' (fans of the flick Major League know this song)...2016 video of a ''new'' Cleveland (LeBron was still there and there's shot of one of the art-deco Guardians, the new name for Indians as of end of this season, at :17)
Above is a great post. Some of this I never heard (how Polish jokes turned into Cleveland jokes).
Thinking back, Polish jokes were still a thing at least locally when I was a kid... How many Polocks does it take to change a lightbulb?? One to hold the bulb, 5 to turn the ladder.
These were jokes Polish kids mostly were making about themselves, and I haven't heard any on a widespread level since the early 90s. Never realized that they actually predated the "Cleveland' jokes. But makes sense.
Above is a great post. Some of this I never heard (how Polish jokes turned into Cleveland jokes).
Thinking back, Polish jokes were still a thing at least locally when I was a kid... How many Polocks does it take to change a lightbulb?? One to hold the bulb, 5 to turn the ladder.
These were jokes Polish kids mostly were making about themselves, and I haven't heard any on a widespread level since the early 90s. Never realized that they actually predated the "Cleveland' jokes. But makes sense.
I can think of a few along the lines of that one as well — and what might have made the transition from darts thrown at Poles to darts thrown at Cleveland easier was the fact that the city was a magnet for immigrants from Central Europe (later Eastern Europe after the Iron Curtain fell over it) during its years of greatest industrialization; an organization called the Cleveland Cosmopolitan Council took as its mission "making Americans" out of these immigrants.
Wasn't Mayor Dennis Kucinich — on whose watch the city defaulted on its bonds — Polish-American?
Above is a great post. Some of this I never heard (how Polish jokes turned into Cleveland jokes).
Thinking back, Polish jokes were still a thing at least locally when I was a kid... How many Polocks does it take to change a lightbulb?? One to hold the bulb, 5 to turn the ladder.
These were jokes Polish kids mostly were making about themselves, and I haven't heard any on a widespread level since the early 90s. Never realized that they actually predated the "Cleveland' jokes. But makes sense.
Those jokes were universal and were applied to every local ethnic group. I’ve heard the same jokes as Eyetalian, Portagee, Irish, Hungarian, etc.
Those jokes were universal and were applied to every local ethnic group. I’ve heard the same jokes as Eyetalian, Portagee, Irish, Hungarian, etc.
Ethnic jokes were common and the ''Polish Joke'' dominated, but Cleveland brought it to another level with a ''certain ethnic'' joke culture in the '60s-'70s...local weekend movie hosts (there were 3: Friday night, Saturday afternoon, and Saturday night) did their own skits during breaks from the movie based on ''certain ethnic'' situations and characters with last names ending in ''-ski''. Polish jokes brought to life.
Not only were these characters ''ethnic'' but there were lots of men in drag, a gay dude, and a Soul Man...this was 50 years ago and Cleveland kids and adults knew all these characters...and everyone watched in racially and ethnically divided Cleveland. People today don't realize how divided ethnic groups were back then so meeting and working with polish, ukrainian, or italian folks was just as unique as meeting and working with black, puerto rican, or asian folks...depending on of course what you were and you were pretty just as different to them.
Discrimination was real bad though between white ethnic groups in Cleveland when to came to many things, including a job.
And Cleveland suburb Parma took the brunt of ridicule for Parma Jokes generally and the Polish Jokes generally as Cleveland's Polish and Eastern Europeans moved to this suburb in droves; The Drew Carey show opened for several years with "Moon Over Parma'' and references, among other things ''going bowling'' of course...Slovenian Mayor Ralph Perk (Republican) and his wife turned down an invitation to Nixon's White House because it interfered with Mrs. Perk's bowling night...trust me, you didn't want to be from or near Parma, OH or its satellite Parma Hts, Seven Hills (this is the suburb John Demjanjuk was from, a Ukrainian auto work brought to Israel in the '80s and put on trial for being former death camp guard Ivan the Terrible).
All this set against the backdrop of '60s-'70s unrest in Cleveland, from large-scale racial rioting, a mafia bombing war, labor unrest (teamsters Jackie Presser, a real tough jewish dude)...but the best place to grow up...mistake on the lake meets best location in the nation.
A few samples of Cleveland's local embedded ''certain ethnic humor'' aka Polish Jokes...these are old, many won't get it or think they're stupid, but they're a classic example of an ethnic working class U.S. city of that ere (non-trigger warning: these are all white ethnic jokes, there were black characters, Indians, etc but they're not-posted, all funny and meant in fun, but the way things are today....)...also some of these are take-offs on '70s TV Shows like Six Million $ Man and Mary Hartman (the Mary character has a great Cleveland accent and Mary lived in Parma, of course).
I can think of a few along the lines of that one as well — and what might have made the transition from darts thrown at Poles to darts thrown at Cleveland easier was the fact that the city was a magnet for immigrants from Central Europe (later Eastern Europe after the Iron Curtain fell over it) during its years of greatest industrialization; an organization called the Cleveland Cosmopolitan Council took as its mission "making Americans" out of these immigrants.
Wasn't Mayor Dennis Kucinich — on whose watch the city defaulted on its bonds — Polish-American?
Yes, and CLE had the largest Hungarian (a huge influx came after the Soviet Union suppressed the Hungarian uprising in 1956-screenwriter Joe Ezsterhas came to Cleveland as a child and among his many movies, "Telling Lies in America'' is his own growing up in Cleveland story), Ukrainian (the Deer Hunter wedding scene was filmed in Cleveland's Tremont neighborhood at St. Theodosius Church), and Slovenian communities in the U.S.
The Cleveland Cosmopolitan Council was part of the ''making Americans'' out of those immigrants and they did come to be Americans, and they especially wanted their children to be Americans after what they endured in Europe.
Catholic schools in general were meant to discipline immigrants and their kids to be able to assimilate as much as possible in a Protestant America ie. be on time, wear clean clothes, speak, write, and be well mannered.
Imagine trying any of this today...lol.
Dennis Kucinich is a classic Clevelander...but he's what was known as a Polish Paddy; not 100% Poish, but 1/2 Polish and 1/2 Irish...a rare mix indeed, especially in the 1940s...hence the first name Dennis (mother) Kucinich (father)...a Polish Paddy is what...Comedian Tim Conway is another classic and even rarer 1930s Cleveland mix of Irish-Romanian, father from Ireland, mother from Romania..how did this work out?...Conway's Mr. Tudball character accent from the Mrs. Wiggins skits on Carol Burnett Show was lifted from his mother's family Romo accent.
When a talk about a pass I mean very specifically about urbanization. Detroit has a bad Reputation but nobody would call it some big suburb. Unlike Atlanta, which both has more people living in 10,000 ppsm neighborhood and a much more robust transit system and a far less urban freeway system
When a talk about a pass I mean very specifically about urbanization. Detroit has a bad Reputation but nobody would call it some big suburb. Unlike Atlanta, which both has more people living in 10,000 ppsm neighborhood and a much more robust transit system and a far less urban freeway system
I wouldn't count being the poster city's for deindustrialization (like Detroit, Cleveland) as getting a pass. Since we are talking jokes, I don't think any two cities have taken the brunt of jokes (and not good natured either) more than those two over the past 40-50 years.
And say what you want about 10,000 ppsm neighborhoods, Atlanta has grown in population in 5 of the past 7 census counts since 1950. It also has a gigantic vertical skyline that stretches from downtown-midtown-Buckhead. Yet, overall has a population density of 3,600 ppsm in the city.
Detroit and Cleveland, despite losing population in all 7 census counts since 1950 still are both around 5,000 ppsm and that's with both losing 60 or so percent of its peak population. Both cities (and St. Louis) could, even with smaller household sizes now, get back to 8,000 ppsm just on SFH infill (not saying it will, just saying its possible) with all the empty lots in the core.
For Atlanta to get to that level (since its pretty much built out and doesn't have nearly the blank slate neighborhoods) will have to continue to go even more vertical in coming years.
Then, its not like Cleveland or Detroit (and assuming St. Louis) are simply strictly replacing empty SFH empty lots with other SFHs. Yes there are quite a bit of that happening (at least in Cleveland) but there is also just as much turning say 4 empty SFH lots into 8 row style townhouses.
And Cleveland (not as familiar with Detroit or St. Louis) is building vertical as well. Obviously not to the extent of Atlanta, but it does have two 250-ish foot apartment towers under construction (one downtown and one in University Circle) and it has a massive 10 story building going up in Ohio City (the footprint on that thing is huge so probably would be 300-foot plus if on the land the other two are on). That's on top of 400 foot and 350 foot residential towers completed in the past couple years.
Pass or not, Atlanta (despite its enormous skyline) has a long way to go to be overall as urban as some of these "failing" legacy cities.
MARTA though does blow out most transit systems in the country, let alone the "legacy". The crazy thing to me is how low density much of Atlanta is despite that. Its not like even MARTA's rail system is new. Atlanta has had heavy rail for 50 years, so it's pretty much legacy in that regard.
Edit: this in anecdotal, but my daughter came back to town this week with her boyfriend (from Charlotte... first time to Cleveland). Took them downtown the other day to get to know the dude a little more. I know people love the skyline awe in Cincinnati (coming up 75 from Kentucky) or Pittsburgh (through the tunnel). We got one here too when coming up 71 from the south where once you round the curve and go from Big Creek area (Zoo) to Ohio City/Tremont and the skyline hits you. Anyway, hit that curve and he was like "man, this is a big city." He was like we got a train in Charlotte, you guys got one? Yeah, we got a couple lol.
Last edited by ClevelandBrown; 08-26-2021 at 11:53 PM..
I wouldn't count being the poster city's for deindustrialization (like Detroit, Cleveland) as getting a pass. Since we are talking jokes, I don't think any two cities have taken the brunt of jokes (and not good natured either) more than those two over the past 40-50 years.
And say what you want about 10,000 ppsm neighborhoods, Atlanta has grown in population in 5 of the past 7 census counts since 1950. It also has a gigantic vertical skyline that stretches from downtown-midtown-Buckhead. Yet, overall has a population density of 3,600 ppsm in the city.
Detroit and Cleveland, despite losing population in all 7 census counts since 1950 still are both around 5,000 ppsm and that's with both losing 60 or so percent of its peak population. Both cities (and St. Louis) could, even with smaller household sizes now, get back to 8,000 ppsm just on SFH infill (not saying it will, just saying its possible) with all the empty lots in the core.
For Atlanta to get to that level (since its pretty much built out and doesn't have nearly the blank slate neighborhoods) will have to continue to go even more vertical in coming years.
Then, its not like Cleveland or Detroit (and assuming St. Louis) are simply strictly replacing empty SFH empty lots with other SFHs. Yes there are quite a bit of that happening (at least in Cleveland) but there is also just as much turning say 4 empty SFH lots into 8 row style townhouses.
And Cleveland (not as familiar with Detroit or St. Louis) is building vertical as well. Obviously not to the extent of Atlanta, but it does have two 250-ish foot apartment towers under construction (one downtown and one in University Circle) and it has a massive 10 story building going up in Ohio City (the footprint on that thing is huge so probably would be 300-foot plus if on the land the other two are on). That's on top of 400 foot and 350 foot residential towers completed in the past couple years.
Pass or not, Atlanta (despite its enormous skyline) has a long way to go to be overall as urban as some of these "failing" legacy cities.
MARTA though does blow out most transit systems in the country, let alone the "legacy". The crazy thing to me is how low density much of Atlanta is despite that. Its not like even MARTA's rail system is new. Atlanta has had heavy rail for 50 years, so it's pretty much legacy in that regard.
I think people underestimate how much core cities even in the South actually depopulated. In 1950 Atlanta had 331,000 is about 50 sq miles.
The old city limits of Louisville, Indianapolis, Birmingham (obviously), etc have far fewer people than in 1950. Center Township in Indianapolis lost about 55% it’s population.
As a result Raleigh and Rochester or Atlanta and Cleveland don’t actually look hugely different.
Plus St Louis or Detroit don’t operate like they used to. Those neighborhoods have amenities that support their current population, not their population 70 years ago. So functionally it’s like living the n a suburban neighborhood.
I wouldn't count being the poster city's for deindustrialization (like Detroit, Cleveland) as getting a pass. Since we are talking jokes, I don't think any two cities have taken the brunt of jokes (and not good natured either) more than those two over the past 40-50 years.
And say what you want about 10,000 ppsm neighborhoods, Atlanta has grown in population in 5 of the past 7 census counts since 1950. It also has a gigantic vertical skyline that stretches from downtown-midtown-Buckhead. Yet, overall has a population density of 3,600 ppsm in the city.
Detroit and Cleveland, despite losing population in all 7 census counts since 1950 still are both around 5,000 ppsm and that's with both losing 60 or so percent of its peak population. Both cities (and St. Louis) could, even with smaller household sizes now, get back to 8,000 ppsm just on SFH infill (not saying it will, just saying its possible) with all the empty lots in the core.
For Atlanta to get to that level (since its pretty much built out and doesn't have nearly the blank slate neighborhoods) will have to continue to go even more vertical in coming years.
Then, its not like Cleveland or Detroit (and assuming St. Louis) are simply strictly replacing empty SFH empty lots with other SFHs. Yes there are quite a bit of that happening (at least in Cleveland) but there is also just as much turning say 4 empty SFH lots into 8 row style townhouses.
And Cleveland (not as familiar with Detroit or St. Louis) is building vertical as well. Obviously not to the extent of Atlanta, but it does have two 250-ish foot apartment towers under construction (one downtown and one in University Circle) and it has a massive 10 story building going up in Ohio City (the footprint on that thing is huge so probably would be 300-foot plus if on the land the other two are on). That's on top of 400 foot and 350 foot residential towers completed in the past couple years.
Pass or not, Atlanta (despite its enormous skyline) has a long way to go to be overall as urban as some of these "failing" legacy cities.
MARTA though does blow out most transit systems in the country, let alone the "legacy". The crazy thing to me is how low density much of Atlanta is despite that. Its not like even MARTA's rail system is new. Atlanta has had heavy rail for 50 years, so it's pretty much legacy in that regard.
Edit: this in anecdotal, but my daughter came back to town this week with her boyfriend (from Charlotte... first time to Cleveland). Took them downtown the other day to get to know the dude a little more. I know people love the skyline awe in Cincinnati (coming up 75 from Kentucky) or Pittsburgh (through the tunnel). We got one here too when coming up 71 from the south where once you round the curve and go from Big Creek area (Zoo) to Ohio City/Tremont and the skyline hits you. Anyway, hit that curve and he was like "man, this is a big city." He was like we got a train in Charlotte, you guys got one? Yeah, we got a couple lol.
Charlotte's skyline is actually bigger than Clevelands skyline.
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