Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
VA and KY are absolutely Southern states. They are just border states with some extraregional influences, but they are definitely Southern states at their cores.
Again, your opinion. They will forever be lumped together with the other “out of the South” Southern states by me. Along with Maryland, Oklahoma, Delaware and any other state that ain’t in the South.
Maryland is southern, I can't speak for the other states. I hate that we're out into this weird category that we're aren't really considered either, but I think that it speaks to people's perceptions of the south.
I also think it speaks to perception...
Being that Mid-Atlantic is a sub-region rather than major one, being of the Mid-Atlantic does not disqualify one from being southern or northern...
You will find plenty of people from the major VA areas that will consider themselves southerners. Plenty of people also consider themselves not southerners. Nobody calls themselves northerners. So in VA's case, it's a southern state, but the urban areas are more alike other Mid-Atlantic areas. Doesn't make us northerners, but I'm positive Urban VA is the only place like it in the South (unless one counts DC and Maryland as "South")...
Maryland is a more northern-ized Virginia with plenty of southern attributes, at least southern when considering the traditional Northeast states. I'm not sure if this should or shouldn't disqualify Maryland from being in the modern South, but if it does I can make a vase that Richmond, Nova, and Hampton Roads should be as well, as all three of those areas mirror anywhere in Maryland more than anywhere in North Carolina. When people call Virginia southern, they are really referring to the geography and the history, because the modern urban VA where most of us live can arguably be considered not southern by modern definitions...
My personal opinion with having lived in the Northeast is Virginia is southern, including the urban areas, but only compared to the Northeast. It's easy for me to see why people elsewhere in the South wouldn't think of NoVa, Richmond, or Southside Hampton Roads as southern...
I do feel Maryland is further removed from the modern South than Virginia. Again though I'm not sure that should disqualify it from the South and if it does there are arguments to be made for other parts of the traditional South as well...
Being that Mid-Atlantic is a sub-region rather than major one, being of the Mid-Atlantic does not disqualify one from being southern or northern...
You will find plenty of people from the major VA areas that will consider themselves southerners. Plenty of people also consider themselves not southerners. Nobody calls themselves northerners. So in VA's case, it's a southern state, but the urban areas are more alike other Mid-Atlantic areas. Doesn't make us northerners, but I'm positive Urban VA is the only place like it in the South (unless one counts DC and Maryland as "South")...
Maryland is a more northern-ized Virginia with plenty of southern attributes, at least southern when considering the traditional Northeast states. I'm not sure if this should or shouldn't disqualify Maryland from being in the modern South, but if it does I can make a vase that Richmond, Nova, and Hampton Roads should be as well, as all three of those areas mirror anywhere in Maryland more than anywhere in North Carolina. When people call Virginia southern, they are really referring to the geography and the history, because the modern urban VA where most of us live can arguably be considered not southern by modern definitions...
My personal opinion with having lived in the Northeast is Virginia is southern, including the urban areas, but only compared to the Northeast. It's easy for me to see why people elsewhere in the South wouldn't think of NoVa, Richmond, or Southside Hampton Roads as southern...
I do feel Maryland is further removed from the modern South than Virginia. Again though I'm not sure that should disqualify it from the South and if it does there are arguments to be made for other parts of the traditional South as well...
What is the modern definition of the south, though? You hear this a lot and think, Baltimore used to be southern, but now it isn't, yet it hasn't been overrun by northerners like most major southern. From a logical standpoint, the Baltimore area has to be one of the most southern metropolitan areas there for the simple fact that it hasn't changed much culturally in God know's how long.
Again, your opinion. They will forever be lumped together with the other “out of the South†Southern states by me. Along with Maryland, Oklahoma, Delaware and any other state that ain’t in the South.
This isn’t opinion. The history of the state is undeniably southern. Just as southern as any other state. Old Virginny is Southern.
Is there a qualifier to why Maryland is Mid-Atlantic, but Virginia and West Virginia aren't?
The problem that is deep-rooted within this country's categorization of regions is that we lump entire states into regions. Virginia is a southern state...with its largest regions being more alike other "Mid-Atlantic" areas than anywhere else in the South. Maryland is a northern state...with a minority of its population definitely southern, but it's largest areas being more like other Mid-Atlantic areas than traditionally northern areas...
West Virginia is a mix of all of its adjacent states but I'd definitely say it's a southern state, but again...its not Louisiana-southern. It's largest cities are in the same boat as the largest cities from Virginia and Maryland...
I'm a believer of Virginia as a southern state, however, I do think there has to be an understanding that urban Virginia is not southern in the contemporary form of the word. Urban Virginia is southern in a traditionally Virginian way and even still is a hard press to compare to most other areas of the South, rather than areas to its north.. ..
Let me start by saying I haven't been to any of these states.
Virginia is undoubtedly southern, was the capital of the CSA, Richmond is full of Confederate history, etc. West Virginia is about as Mid-Atlantic as Arkansas is Gulf Coast. Far too removed from that Atlantic culture.
Now, all of my opinions are just that and they are shaped by stereotypes, information and personal accounts I've learned throughout the years, etc. I am biased, we all are.
I really have no argument or problem with people saying WV is southern, although it has counties in Pittsburgh metro or CSA, right? Morgantown is more north than Baltimore, and Charleston is closer to Columbus, Pittsburgh, and Cincy than any major southern city.
Urban Virginia as in Richmond and the Norfolk? I think the same, or similar could be said for New Orleans, although NOLA is still extremely southern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isawooty
Again, your opinion. They will forever be lumped together with the other “out of the South†Southern states by me. Along with Maryland, Oklahoma, Delaware and any other state that ain’t in the South.
What is the modern definition of the south, though? You hear this a lot and think, Baltimore used to be southern, but now it isn't, yet it hasn't been overrun by northerners like most major southern. From a logical standpoint, the Baltimore area has to be one of the most southern metropolitan areas there for the simple fact that it hasn't changed much culturally in God know's how long.
That's a very good question and one I'm not sure I can totally answer, so I'll try to answer it this way...
I did a personal study at work a month ago, small sample size admittedly, but found it broke down to about 55% of people here do NOT think this is the South, and 45% do. I live in Norfolk-Virginia Beach now, and this was telling for other reasons I'll explain in a minute. Just doing some hypothetical extrapolations, I think there is close to 50/50 here on what people view the area as. And these are people that are a mix of native/transplants but mostly natives, I work with transplants who consider this the South and those who don't...
The underlying theme I've gotten is that people around here view the South as something different than here, and not in a negative or disrespectful manner, just that a lot of people feel the South is something different. This was news to me and I was surprised, because much of this area looks like the South physically (Suffolk, Hampton/Newport News, rural counties, Va Beach out south towards NC); this area is socially, culturally, and somewhat economically tied to definitive South regions (large ties to Eastern Shore and Northeast NC as far as Greenville); there are plenty of southern accents here (and to be fair plenty that arent, but at least half are); Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Chesapeake, there are areas of all three--which amounts to a significant percentage of the Southside, though I wouldn't say "most"--that is very Sunbelt-ish in residential and commercial architecture, and while Sun Belt isn't a strictly South thing, it ain't a North thing...
So this area displays those characteristics but by probably half or close to that of the population, they don't think this is the South?
Characteristics that long ago ceased to be southern things I don't consider: people watch Nascar everywhere and some of the most loyal fan bases are outside the South; people literally say "y'all" everywhere from New York to LA and I've heard it every single place I've been outside the South and heard it with prevalence; people eat soul food most places outside the South and it can be found in local restaurants from NY to California, that and sweet tea; country music is a national genre and phenomenon listened to everywhere; southern hip hop is a national phenomenon and listened to everywhere; not being a very international area means nothing because some of the most stale areas in the country are outside of the South and a couple of the most international cities in the nation are in the South....so these and others are no longer identifiers of being southern, so it further begs the question, what is seen as southern today?
Kode Blue, I don't disagree with you. What exactly seperate Baltimore from being considered the South? I do think that being connected with northern cities more than southern ones has to count for something. And yet, the accent is not a Northeastern accent but instead some weird hybrid that is clearly southern-influenced (among other influences). The city was built and laid out like northern cities. But I don't know...
The interesting thing is when people try to line Richmond up with DC or Baltimore, or lump it in with the rest of the South, it is absent most of the southern characteristics of Hampton Roads, showing just how little people on this board know of Hampton Roads: Richmond City Southside has neighborhoods that could fit in North Carolina, but most of Richmond isn't built like a southern city (I'm thinking Carolinas, Atlanta, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, etc); Richmond effectively has zero present-day economic or social ties to anywhere below Petersburg or the Hampton Roads Peninsula, but has had ties to DC, Baltimore, Philly going back centuries; there are fewer southern accents in Richmond, though plenty exist, but the typical Richmond accent is neutral; there is virtually nothing Sun Belt about residential or commercial architecture in Richmond...so Richmond is a victim of its past when people unfailingly call it southern, and yet many of those same people call Hampton Roads not southern, and while both probably are, there is a "closer-to-Northeast" vibe in Richmond that doesn't exist anywhere here. There are things about and parts if Richmond that remind people of Philly and Pittsburgh. There is nothing in Richmond that reminds me of Raleigh or Atlanta...
And yet none of that means Richmond isn't the South, so again, what is the modern South??
I think online the historical tendencies of a place are inconsistently applied to some places more than others. The consensus seems to be Richmond is pigeonholed for that capital of Confederacy era that is meaningless to most modern Richmonders, and yet other places with southern history, their southern history is now meaningless...
The thing to me is if the United States of America was founded as it is today, with all of the Lower 48 in its current form, Virginia wouldn't even be considered southern. It's in the northeast quadrant of the United States, the midpoint of the East Coast is somewhere between Emporia and the VA/NC state line, and the majority if Virginians live in regions that are southern-lite and dissociated from the major economies and regions of the South. This "nation" had 2.4 million recognized people at its independence. It's bewildering to me that people expect parts of the country to be the Sasame n as it was in 1800...
I guess I really can't answer your question any better than anyone else, but my guess is perceptions of the modern South are inconsistently applied to accents, politics, and history. I know I've personally been told many times that Virginia isn't southern by southerners from North Carolina to Texas and Oklahoma, and have been told by New Yorkers and Pennsylvanians that Richmond, Hampton Roads, and Northern Virginia isn't southern as well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_himself
Let me start by saying I haven't been to any of these states.
Virginia is undoubtedly southern, was the capital of the CSA, Richmond is full of Confederate history, etc. West Virginia is about as Mid-Atlantic as Arkansas is Gulf Coast. Far too removed from that Atlantic culture.
Now, all of my opinions are just that and they are shaped by stereotypes, information and personal accounts I've learned throughout the years, etc. I am biased, we all are.
I really have no argument or problem with people saying WV is southern, although it has counties in Pittsburgh metro or CSA, right? Morgantown is more north than Baltimore, and Charleston is closer to Columbus, Pittsburgh, and Cincy than any major southern city.
Urban Virginia as in Richmond and the Norfolk? I think the same, or similar could be said for New Orleans, although NOLA is still extremely southern.
You have no idea what you're talking about, btw.
Urban Virginia equals the crescent from Northern Virginia through Central Virginia/Greater Richmond to Tidewater/Hampton Roads, the urban and suburban areas if those regions...
I find it offensive that people, pretty much all of whom with no measurable knowledge of Richmond, use the "Capital of Confederacy/Richmond is full of Confederate history" as their basis of argument for Richmond being southern. It's literally the WORST argument anybody can give as to why Richmond is southern today because it implies that everywhere else in America is entitled to growth and change but Richmond, Virginia is the same place it was in 1865. It also glaringly reveals instantly someone who isn't knowledgeable about the city and how it operates today....
Whether Richmond is or isn't southern, it's completely unique to Virginia and is more alike DC and Baltimore than it is to Raleigh, Charlotte, and the rest of the South. It has a deeper southern history than a lot of places...it isn't deeply southern today, if one even considers it so, and not by a long shot. The same thing can't be said of New Orleans...
Virginia is southern but only really compared to northern states, and it's metropolitan areas are southern-lite at best to a degree that isn't comparable to anywhere else in the South. Neither Richmond nor Hampton Roads is in the Bible Belt, and that whole history and CSA crap is exactly what it is--history. Only a minority of Virginia's population is unquestionably southern today...
Last edited by murksiderock; 12-13-2017 at 02:34 AM..
^ Yep, you have these huge swathes of Virginia that are culturally Southern, but no one lives there. I used to work in Lebanon, VA. In that area of the state, it's hard to find a city of more than 10,000 people. Going up 81 to Wytheville takes a little over an hour, and there isn't a city larger than Bristol until you get to Christiansburg. Count both Bristols, and you won't find anything larger until Roanoke.
^ Yep, you have these huge swathes of Virginia that are culturally Southern, but no one lives there. I used to work in Lebanon, VA. In that area of the state, it's hard to find a city of more than 10,000 people. Going up 81 to Wytheville takes a little over an hour, and there isn't a city larger than Bristol until you get to Christiansburg. Count both Bristols, and you won't find anything larger until Roanoke.
There's just nobody there.
Exactly. I've been to Wytheville and Marion--that region is absolutely the South...
Virginia is treated differently on this board from other states, I've noticed through the years. Other states are spoken of and related by their most populous areas' characteristics TODAY. Virginia is spoken of by it's "history" and the assumption that since geographically, most of the state is southern, the entire state must be the same way. It ignores reality that three out of four people in Virginia live in that "urban crescent" and culturally bear no resemblance to Blacksburg, Roanoke, Lynchburg, etc...
And Richmond is the realistic largest city of Virginia, so whereas other states on here are given the benefit of the doubt of their respective largest cities, Virginia is treated as if Richmond is stuck in an 1842 time warp and people seperate NoVa like it's not really Virginia...
This is an older op-ed that describes pre-war Richmond. Having a culture of free blacks wasn't unique to Richmond, as I know Charleston, New Orleans, and other cities did as well, but there are other qualities that Richmond had back then that were not typical of the South.
It further strengthens my opinion that Richmond was never deeply southern to begin with--it was southern in a country that was much smaller and less diverse and sophisticated: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.co...-of-the-south/
Tier 1 has to be just Texas and Florida. No way Georgia, the next highest state, is in the same tier with less than half of Texas' population and less than a third of Texas' economy.
That's a very good question and one I'm not sure I can totally answer, so I'll try to answer it this way...
I did a personal study at work a month ago, small sample size admittedly, but found it broke down to about 55% of people here do NOT think this is the South, and 45% do. I live in Norfolk-Virginia Beach now, and this was telling for other reasons I'll explain in a minute. Just doing some hypothetical extrapolations, I think there is close to 50/50 here on what people view the area as. And these are people that are a mix of native/transplants but mostly natives, I work with transplants who consider this the South and those who don't...
The underlying theme I've gotten is that people around here view the South as something different than here, and not in a negative or disrespectful manner, just that a lot of people feel the South is something different. This was news to me and I was surprised, because much of this area looks like the South physically (Suffolk, Hampton/Newport News, rural counties, Va Beach out south towards NC); this area is socially, culturally, and somewhat economically tied to definitive South regions (large ties to Eastern Shore and Northeast NC as far as Greenville); there are plenty of southern accents here (and to be fair plenty that arent, but at least half are); Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Chesapeake, there are areas of all three--which amounts to a significant percentage of the Southside, though I wouldn't say "most"--that is very Sunbelt-ish in residential and commercial architecture, and while Sun Belt isn't a strictly South thing, it ain't a North thing...
So this area displays those characteristics but by probably half or close to that of the population, they don't think this is the South?
Characteristics that long ago ceased to be southern things I don't consider: people watch Nascar everywhere and some of the most loyal fan bases are outside the South; people literally say "y'all" everywhere from New York to LA and I've heard it every single place I've been outside the South and heard it with prevalence; people eat soul food most places outside the South and it can be found in local restaurants from NY to California, that and sweet tea; country music is a national genre and phenomenon listened to everywhere; southern hip hop is a national phenomenon and listened to everywhere; not being a very international area means nothing because some of the most stale areas in the country are outside of the South and a couple of the most international cities in the nation are in the South....so these and others are no longer identifiers of being southern, so it further begs the question, what is seen as southern today?
Kode Blue, I don't disagree with you. What exactly seperate Baltimore from being considered the South? I do think that being connected with northern cities more than southern ones has to count for something. And yet, the accent is not a Northeastern accent but instead some weird hybrid that is clearly southern-influenced (among other influences). The city was built and laid out like northern cities. But I don't know...
The interesting thing is when people try to line Richmond up with DC or Baltimore, or lump it in with the rest of the South, it is absent most of the southern characteristics of Hampton Roads, showing just how little people on this board know of Hampton Roads: Richmond City Southside has neighborhoods that could fit in North Carolina, but most of Richmond isn't built like a southern city (I'm thinking Carolinas, Atlanta, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, etc); Richmond effectively has zero present-day economic or social ties to anywhere below Petersburg or the Hampton Roads Peninsula, but has had ties to DC, Baltimore, Philly going back centuries; there are fewer southern accents in Richmond, though plenty exist, but the typical Richmond accent is neutral; there is virtually nothing Sun Belt about residential or commercial architecture in Richmond...so Richmond is a victim of its past when people unfailingly call it southern, and yet many of those same people call Hampton Roads not southern, and while both probably are, there is a "closer-to-Northeast" vibe in Richmond that doesn't exist anywhere here. There are things about and parts if Richmond that remind people of Philly and Pittsburgh. There is nothing in Richmond that reminds me of Raleigh or Atlanta...
And yet none of that means Richmond isn't the South, so again, what is the modern South??
I think online the historical tendencies of a place are inconsistently applied to some places more than others. The consensus seems to be Richmond is pigeonholed for that capital of Confederacy era that is meaningless to most modern Richmonders, and yet other places with southern history, their southern history is now meaningless...
The thing to me is if the United States of America was founded as it is today, with all of the Lower 48 in its current form, Virginia wouldn't even be considered southern. It's in the northeast quadrant of the United States, the midpoint of the East Coast is somewhere between Emporia and the VA/NC state line, and the majority if Virginians live in regions that are southern-lite and dissociated from the major economies and regions of the South. This "nation" had 2.4 million recognized people at its independence. It's bewildering to me that people expect parts of the country to be the Sasame n as it was in 1800...
I guess I really can't answer your question any better than anyone else, but my guess is perceptions of the modern South are inconsistently applied to accents, politics, and history. I know I've personally been told many times that Virginia isn't southern by southerners from North Carolina to Texas and Oklahoma, and have been told by New Yorkers and Pennsylvanians that Richmond, Hampton Roads, and Northern Virginia isn't southern as well...
Urban Virginia equals the crescent from Northern Virginia through Central Virginia/Greater Richmond to Tidewater/Hampton Roads, the urban and suburban areas if those regions...
I find it offensive that people, pretty much all of whom with no measurable knowledge of Richmond, use the "Capital of Confederacy/Richmond is full of Confederate history" as their basis of argument for Richmond being southern. It's literally the WORST argument anybody can give as to why Richmond is southern today because it implies that everywhere else in America is entitled to growth and change but Richmond, Virginia is the same place it was in 1865. It also glaringly reveals instantly someone who isn't knowledgeable about the city and how it operates today....
Whether Richmond is or isn't southern, it's completely unique to Virginia and is more alike DC and Baltimore than it is to Raleigh, Charlotte, and the rest of the South. It has a deeper southern history than a lot of places...it isn't deeply southern today, if one even considers it so, and not by a long shot. The same thing can't be said of New Orleans...
Virginia is southern but only really compared to northern states, and it's metropolitan areas are southern-lite at best to a degree that isn't comparable to anywhere else in the South. Neither Richmond nor Hampton Roads is in the Bible Belt, and that whole history and CSA crap is exactly what it is--history. Only a minority of Virginia's population is unquestionably southern today...
This quote here: ". It's bewildering to me that people expect parts of the country to be the Sasame n as it was in 1800..." is hitting the nail on the head for Mississippi as well. Due to the horrid experiences that made mainstream news during the 60s and cases like Mississippi Burning it have been instill in others mindset. I often irk from those out of state thinking Mississippi is stuck in the past when it's actually not the case. Only certain individuals and spots are like that but not the entirety.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
