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Which is completely subjective. I posted objective data.
Sprawl has to do more with form and function than population density. Stats can be useful indicators in this context but they don't tell the complete story.
That said, even if there may be some disagreement about the urbanity of LA's suburbs, there shouldn't be any when it comes to the urban core of LA itself which I think is criminally underrated.
For a city its size, Charleston, West Virginia felt surprisingly urban. The immediate downtown core of Charleston WV is comparable to the downtown core of Baton Rouge though Baton Rouge is a far larger city. Charleston is built in a narrow river valley so things are dense, and even the suburbs don't have huge lot sizes like in many larger metro areas. Many of Charleston's residential neighborhoods are more dense than Baton Rouge's.
Lafayette, Louisiana has a surprising amount of street life.
The "sprawl" memes (this is much more applicable to San Diego city) that get propagated everywhere are not only not true now, they've never really been true. It's 450 square miles, but it's still a dense, compact city. The San Fernando Valley part of the city would be a little more populated than Dallas at nearly twice the population density-that's the part of L.A. that historically gets derided as being a big suburb.
This is very true; I have family in Van Nuys and Pacoima, and while suburban compared to central Los Angeles, there are parts of both, particularly Van Nuys, that are quite urban...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
Sprawl has to do more with form and function than population density. Stats can be useful indicators in this context but they don't tell the complete story.
That said, even if there may be some disagreement about the urbanity of LA's suburbs, there shouldn't be any when it comes to the urban core of LA itself which I think is criminally underrated.
LA for years has been derided by people for it's supposed "lack" of urbanity, usually by people who aren't from Chicago or NY, the only two cities I believe are more urban than LA. We've had conversations through the years comparing LA to Miami, Boston, Philly, SF, DC, none of those cities are more urban than LA, and the discussions introduced a variety of criteria to consider, none of which could prove these cities as more urban than Los Angeles. Then you get out and you visit some if these cities and nothing about them seems more urban than Los Angeles, which dwarfs these cities in many "big city" functions....
I think it's gotten a little better on here recently in regards to more posters taking part in those discussions, but overall the East Coast/northern lean on here still exists and that tends to be how people gauge urbanity, even if blindly but glaringly inaccurate...
This is very true; I have family in Van Nuys and Pacoima, and while suburban compared to central Los Angeles, there are parts of both, particularly Van Nuys, that are quite urban...
LA for years has been derided by people for it's supposed "lack" of urbanity, usually by people who aren't from Chicago or NY, the only two cities I believe are more urban than LA. We've had conversations through the years comparing LA to Miami, Boston, Philly, SF, DC, none of those cities are more urban than LA, and the discussions introduced a variety of criteria to consider, none of which could prove these cities as more urban than Los Angeles. Then you get out and you visit some if these cities and nothing about them seems more urban than Los Angeles, which dwarfs these cities in many "big city" functions....
I think it's gotten a little better on here recently in regards to more posters taking part in those discussions, but overall the East Coast/northern lean on here still exists and that tends to be how people gauge urbanity, even if blindly but glaringly inaccurate...
LA has 7,000,000 more people than Chicago and 11,000,000 more people than Boston. LA should resemble New York more than a city 1/3rd it’s size. It’s relative not absolutely suburban.
LA has 7,000,000 more people than Chicago and 11,000,000 more people than Boston. LA should resemble New York more than a city 1/3rd it’s size. It’s relative not absolutely suburban.
I'm sorry, New York isn't my barometer or standard of urbanity, so I disagree on what LA "should" be. It was grown and developed in a different era than NY...
I'm sorry, New York isn't my barometer or standard of urbanity, so I disagree on what LA "should" be. It was grown and developed in a different era than NY...
I think that if you took DTLA and the 4-5 sq miles around it and plopped it into say Indianapolis or “urban” St Louis people would be blown away by it. But for its size LA is suburban.
Last edited by btownboss4; 03-08-2019 at 05:35 AM..
I think that if you took DTLA and the 4-5 sq miles around it and plopped it into say Indianapolis or “urban” St Louis people would be blown away by it. But for its size LA is suburban.
In my opinion it's a big of an exaggeration to "suburb shame" LA as it happens on here. It's kind of a hybrid really. I know a lot of people feel LA's core is weak given it's size. I think there is some merit to that. In my experience several of those detractors have stronger than average opinions and tend to overstate it. On the flip side of that the built form of the suburban communities surrounding LA is more dense than almost every legacy city that people consider "urban". Once you get past their inner rings they have more in common with the stripmall built form of southern cities.
A good example would be comparing LA and Seattle. Seattle tends to be looked up as an example of urbanity on here. It has a population density of 7250ppsm in 84sq mi. LA by comparison has a density of 8062ppsm in 470sq mi. You don't achieve that level of density in that great an area by having super uniform built suburban form. You HAVE to have a greater level of urbanity. I think sometimes we conflate height with urban and forget what's happening at the street.
The LA Basin in general is more urban and denser than most people give it credit for. The land constraints and the era it was mostly built in reflect that. Central, East, and South LA were primarily built in the 1920s-1950s, mostly along streetcar lines, and and reflect that timeframe. LA was built more like cities you see around the Great Lakes and Great Plains regions, so not as dense as the Northeast corridor cities, but far denser than the Southern ones. Los Angeles has a similar built form to a lot of Inner-ring areas of Chicago outside the Loop west of 90/94 that were built in the same era. Grid street pattern, mid-level density, bungalows galore, retail corridors. Even the two and three flats in Chicago feel like distant cousins of the Dingbat apartment buildings that are all over the LA basin.
Also, Detroit before its decline had a similar layout to Los Angeles, density, and built form as well. They booked around the same time, both were huge manufacturing hubs, and you can see vestiges of Detroit’s urban form even to this day.
As Los Angeles became more auto oriented, it spread out more, but as the area grew, it still ran into the land constraint issues and has designed. Even the further out suburbs are denser than the typical suburbs you see in the Northeast.
Yes, LA sprawls, but it’s a uniform, dense sprawl. It’s a lot more walkable than people think, especially in the corridor from downtown to Santa Monica. It’s no New York and no one here is really saying that, but it’s not Houston or Atlanta neither
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