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OK. I see differently but maybe the Streetview is outdated. If you're telling me the Streetview as it exists shows lots of businesses that generate significant pedestrian activity, then we're simply seeing two different things.
To suggest that stats on population density or pedestrian activity is a "totally different discussion" is pretty disingenuous and again, these things are part of the goal of even having a level of structural urbanity in place in the first place.
Again, you're a johnny-come-lately here. This isn't the first discussion I've had with OT on this issue.
At this point, I don't think there's anything else to be said. Feel free to have the last word on the matter.
I don't think those specific pics showed lots of businesses generating significant pedestrian activity, I think there are probably other pics out there that do, I'll defer to OT's explanation of his pics and the intent behind them.
We've pretty much established a sufficient level of structural urbanity in (Ensley, East Lake, No Bham etc) and a stats discussion on population density or pedestrian is a much different discussion with a totally different premise. We have been having a qualitative discussion about density, pedestrian activity etc. based on anecdotal evidence. After splitting hairs and getting more precise with our analysis you are now switching course and suggesting a flat quantitative discussion which is a math fest comparing percentages and ratios and averages. The qualitative discussion we had bore much more fruit from my perspective and dealt with the tangible factors regarding walkability and the urban form of southern neighborhoods. That to me was the goal and much more productive.
I don't think those specific pics showed lots of businesses generating significant pedestrian activity, I think there are probably other pics out there that do, I'll defer to OT's explanation of his pics and the intent behind them.
We've pretty much established a sufficient level of structural urbanity in (Ensley, East Lake, No Bham etc) and a stats discussion on population density or pedestrian is a much different discussion with a totally different premise. We have been having a qualitative discussion about density, pedestrian activity etc. based on anecdotal evidence. After splitting hairs and getting more precise with our analysis you are now switching course and suggesting a flat quantitative discussion which is a math fest comparing percentages and ratios and averages. The qualitative discussion we had bore much more fruit from my perspective and dealt with the tangible factors regarding walkability and the urban form of southern neighborhoods. That to me was the goal and much more productive.
You do realize that not only Atlanta, but all the cities listed in the thread topic have similar neighborhoods and pockets of structural urbanity as Birmingham. And many of these urban pockets are actually booming. I'll chalk it up to unfamiliarity and maybe even stereotypes about other cities on the list aside from Richmond which is well regarded in terms of historic urbanity.
The south doesn't have cities with the scale of urbanity seen in large northeastern cities, not even New Orleans. So, the comparison of structural urbanity is moot, especially in high growth cities like Atlanta where structural urban neighborhoods get morphed by recent growth.
You do realize that not only Atlanta, but all the cities listed in the thread topic have similar neighborhoods and pockets of structural urbanity as Birmingham. And many of these urban pockets are actually booming. I'll chalk it up to unfamiliarity and maybe even stereotypes about other cities on the list aside from Richmond which is well regarded in terms of historic urbanity.
The south doesn't have cities with the scale of urbanity seen in large northeastern cities, not even New Orleans. So, the comparison of structural urbanity is moot, especially in high growth cities like Atlanta where structural urban neighborhoods get morphed by recent growth.
Yes I'm aware that the other cities listed on this thread have similar neighborhoods, I recall you and another poster touching on this briefly yesterday. This discussion about Birmingham and Atlanta is not to imply a stereotype about Richmond, Charlotte, or Raleigh or suggest that they don't have similar circumstances in some cases. I am somewhat familiar with the other cities on the thread and like all of them, they all seem to have bright futures ahead of them. (An interesting aside I noted, with the exception of Richmond all of these cities are part and parcel of the Piedmont Atlantic Megaregion, perhaps an urban southern corridor is developing from the Mid Atlantic to the Deep South?) The Deep South cities in the thread (BHAM & ATL) simply took precedent in the discussion.
I agree that the scale of urbanity seen in northeast cities (or Mid Atlantic if that's your cup of tea) is not comparable to what exists in the south. I chalk that up to the east coast cities usually being much older and different culturally. Since that was not the topic of the thread it was irrelevant and another topic for another thread.
Newell Houston Ensley was a leader in the Baptist Church and African-American civil rights. He was a professor at Shaw University, Howard University, and Alcorn University.
smh, pay attention to the thread please, I'm not explaining again.
I don't think those specific pics showed lots of businesses generating significant pedestrian activity, I think there are probably other pics out there that do, I'll defer to OT's explanation of his pics and the intent behind them.
I will just offer this correction: they weren't pictures; they were Google Streetviews. If they accurately show the condition of the business district as it exists now, then I'm not sure why there would be significant pedestrian activity in that area. However, if they are outdated, then that is significant but I don't get the feeling that they were as that wasn't mentioned.
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We've pretty much established a sufficient level of structural urbanity in (Ensley, East Lake, No Bham etc) and a stats discussion on population density or pedestrian is a much different discussion with a totally different premise. We have been having a qualitative discussion about density, pedestrian activity etc. based on anecdotal evidence. After splitting hairs and getting more precise with our analysis you are now switching course and suggesting a flat quantitative discussion which is a math fest comparing percentages and ratios and averages. The qualitative discussion we had bore much more fruit from my perspective and dealt with the tangible factors regarding walkability and the urban form of southern neighborhoods. That to me was the goal and much more productive.
In terms of actual statistics, you can easily determine population density at the least by looking at Census tract data. That's very much related to the discussion at hand and isn't "switching course;" furthermore it is a much more objective exercise. Although not perfect, neighborhood Walkscores could be factored in also.
Google's Street Views aren't a great representation of what exactly goes on in a distinct area. Nor was those links posted to indicate activity, they were strictly posted to show physical urban bones.
Understandable, but given the CONDITION of the business district, it is quite easy to surmise whether much pedestrian activity occurs in the area. Unless Birmingham is just extremely different, it sounds rather counterintuitive for a lot of pedestrian activity to be occurring in a place that's run down with boarded up buildings in the area.
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See, now I've clocked you.
You're including Downtown Decatur like Homewood and Mountain Brook doesn't exist lol. My initial point was to not even include areas as such for a reason. You're acting like Mountain Brook and Homewood don't blend in into the city of Birmingham and function as intown neighborhoods as well. You have to drive through Mountain Brook to get to the Summit, you have to drive through Homewood to get to Lakeshore or Southwest Birmingham. A year ago I "technically" lived in Mountain Brook, even though I pretty much did everything in Eastwood, Birmingham.
And that's cool; I'm not pretending to be some expert on Birmingham because I'm not so there's nothing to "clock" on your end. Downtown Decatur isn't a streetcar suburb that was a destination for Whites fleeing the city of Atlanta, and it actually predates the city of Atlanta. State leaders wanted Decatur as the railroad hub initially but they declined, so lo and behold you have the creation of Atlanta.
And those Streetviews prove that Sweet Auburn is nothing like those suburbs and downtown Decatur is easily more urban than those villages, both structurally and functionally.
It's funny, because I never mention any of those cities, you just assumed so because I created my points based on actuality and facts. I love Atlanta, I have multiple friends in Atlanta, I'VE personally invited some of my friends from NYC to visit Atlanta and drove them around, just a week ago I celebrated my cousin's Birthday in Atlanta.
I just don't see Atlanta as one of the most Urban cities of the Southeast, or the "It" Urban City of the South. If so, then that's not a good representation for the South.
I honestly feel like Atlanta doesn't feel Urban either, it's too forested for my liking. Not enough concrete or grit.
That's fine if you don't see Atlanta as one of the urban Southeastern cities or the "it" urban city of the South. But neither is Birmingham (although it is underrated for urbanity) and that's where you're getting a bunch of pushback.
Birmingham certainly is underrated in terms of its urban form, but I definitely don't think it exceeds Atlanta in this regard. At best, they are similar, due in part to the fact that the cities were similar sizes until the post-war era, after which the automobile dictated much of the South's development patterns. However, most people who visit both objectively will report back that Atlanta feels more urban.
Last edited by JMT; 04-17-2018 at 10:14 AM..
Reason: Removed off-topic comments
Birmingham certainly is underrated in terms of its urban form, but I definitely don't think it exceeds Atlanta in this regard. At best, they are similar, due in part to the fact that the cities were similar sizes until the post-war era, after which the automobile dictated much of the South's development patterns. However, most people who visit both objectively will report back that Atlanta feels more urban.
In general of course not because Huntsville is the least urban out of the big four.What im saying is that I don't think the examples that he posted are good examples that reflect Birmingham's urbinity and they didn't distinguish it from suburban Huntsville let alone Atlanta. I've seen some neighborhoods in Huntsville that are just as urban as the street views he posted.
He will need better Google street views to validate his case.That was my point. I don't see Birmingham as being more urban than Atlanta but it's far more urban that what was indicated.
In general of course not because Huntsville is the least urban out of the big four.What im saying is that I don't think the examples that he posted are good examples that reflect Birmingham's urbinity and they didn't distinguish it from suburban Huntsville let alone Atlanta. I've seen some neighborhoods in Huntsville that are just as urban as the street views he posted.
He will need better Google street views to validate his case.That was my point. I don't see Birmingham as being more urban than Atlanta but it's far more urban that what was indicated.
None of the pictures show Birmingham being far more urban than what was indicated. The streets are mostly empty with very little activity. Atlanta, however, has more street activity and 24/7 type of neighborhoods.
Ensley looks too run down honestly. I get what you're trying to prove, but even with Ensley's structural density and grid, Decatur is still denser.
Homewood is Birmingham’s version of Decatur in look, feel and function. It’s much closer to Bham than Decatur is to ATL though; literally like a mile away from DT. I’m just gonna stay clear of this Ensley discussion lol
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