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In San Jose you could be just about anywhere in California or Florida maybe even Texas or somesuch sprawly modern city. For some reason, that appeals to a bunch of people but not me. St. Louis is an old and historic, walkable eastern-styled city. It has a certain character and appeal and you would pretty much know you are in St. Louis if you woke up from a coma on Market Street (some folks probably have). Not so for San Jose...same, same, same. St. Louis City is artificially confined by its 1870s boundaries and its status as a county. There's no sprawl in St. Louis City -- no room for it. The architecture is attractive and important. The amenities in St. Louis put San Jose to shame.
In San Jose you could be just about anywhere in California or Florida maybe even Texas or somesuch sprawly modern city. For some reason, that appeals to a bunch of people but not me. St. Louis is an old and historic, walkable eastern-styled city. It has a certain character and appeal and you would pretty much know you are in St. Louis if you woke up from a coma on Market Street (some folks probably have). Not so for San Jose...same, same, same. St. Louis City is artificially confined by its 1870s boundaries and its status as a county. There's no sprawl in St. Louis City -- no room for it. The architecture is attractive and important. The amenities in St. Louis put San Jose to shame.
The sprawliness and lack of amenities in San Jose in comparison to St. Louis was very true at the turn of the century, but it’s caught up on a number of things lile making more denser, mixed-use districts, improving its transit infrastructure, and expanding its cultural institutions. To me, it’s overall evened itself out a bit compared to St. Louis though my preference is still for the latter.
What I really wish is that St. Louis were going through the economic boom San Jose has. There’s a lot of room to accomodate and build as it’s a city built for a far larger population.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-11-2018 at 11:20 AM..
Thanks for the reply SkyDog + others. It seems like St. Louis isn't very compact and connected. Would you consider it just sprawly, or more of trying to isolate and recreate a small town in a big city? Is it more suburban than CO Springs?
Also, for outdoors, is there a lot of mountain biking, hiking, and dirt biking / ATVing in the hills by St. Louis?
To be fair, if we are going to hit St. Louis for the urban decay, then one has to hit San Jose for the homelessness and trash. I don't know if it's as bad as LA or San Fran, but if it is, I'll take decay. Decay just means there's not much money floating around. Trashy is kind of a moral failing of the populace IMO.
Thanks for the reply SkyDog + others. It seems like St. Louis isn't very compact and connected. Would you consider it just sprawly, or more of trying to isolate and recreate a small town in a big city? Is it more suburban than CO Springs?
Also, for outdoors, is there a lot of mountain biking, hiking, and dirt biking / ATVing in the hills by St. Louis?
To be fair, if we are going to hit St. Louis for the urban decay, then one has to hit San Jose for the homelessness and trash. I don't know if it's as bad as LA or San Fran, but if it is, I'll take decay. Decay just means there's not much money floating around. Trashy is kind of a moral failing of the populace IMO.
It’s so much bigger than COS that’s a hard comparison. They have a downtown and some old neighborhoods, but they haven’t come close to the level of gentrification in those neighborhoods that other cities have. That’s a plus for some and a minus for others. It’s just one of those cities where everyone who could, left the urban core and they have been slower to come back than in a lot of other places. It’s starting to happen though.
I wish I could remember the names of a few of the neighborhoods I went to. I found some funky little restaurants in some old neighborhoods that definitely felt a bit sketchy driving in, but were fine. I found an awesome brewery in Maplewood. That area seems pretty nice.
I’m serious on the recreation front, it’s so different than what I’m used to in Denver. Everyone ‘goes to the lake’. Doesn’t seem to matter which lake. There’s always a lake and people go to it. As far as dirt biking and ATVing, you have to remember that when you head east of the Rockies, there is no public land like the west has. So much is private property.
To be fair, if we are going to hit St. Louis for the urban decay, then one has to hit San Jose for the homelessness and trash. I don't know if it's as bad as LA or San Fran, but if it is, I'll take decay. Decay just means there's not much money floating around. Trashy is kind of a moral failing of the populace IMO.
Yeah? And a ridiculous crime rate isnt a serious moral failing of the populace?
Im from Oakland so I know about crime, but it's rather hypocritical to call out one city's 'moral failing' when the other city has it's own serious issues that could also be perceived as a 'moral failing', no?
The sprawliness and lack of amenities in San Jose in comparison to St. Louis was very true at the turn of the century, but it’s caught up on a number of things lile making more denser, mixed-use districts, improving its transit infrastructure, and expanding its cultural institutions. To me, it’s overall evened itself out a bit compared to St. Louis though my preference is still for the latter.
What I really wish is that St. Louis were going through the economic boom San Jose has. There’s a lot of room to accomodate and build as it’s a city built for a far larger population.
What kills St. Louis' structural density is north city. So much of it is just gone at this point from a structural standpoint. The difference is night and day when you look at the satellite images of the south city vs north city.
As for San Jose catching up, it is indeed growing and infilling, but St. Louis' cultural institutions remain hard to beat. Many of them have existed since the early 20th century, and they've continued to be cultivated ever since. St. Louis' has also finally gotten the ball rolling on expansion of its lightrail. A city tax passed in order to help fund the north/south branch of the MetroLink, and the study in regards to the line should be completed at some point this month. Early survey results reported back in January were showing a demand for it as well in terms of interest and potential use.
I also agree that I wish St. Louis could be seeing the boom that San Jose is seeing. The city is finding its footing and making important gains, but it likely won't ever see what San Jose is going through now. T
My hope is that when the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency completes its new in north city facility in the middle of next decade though that it becomes a stabilizing factor that can also lead to development.
The city is also taking a developer, Paul McKee, to court after he received hundreds of millions in incentives from the city for development in north city that never came. He's sitting on 1500 acres of land that he's neither developed or maintained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P
Thanks for the reply SkyDog + others. It seems like St. Louis isn't very compact and connected. Would you consider it just sprawly, or more of trying to isolate and recreate a small town in a big city? Is it more suburban than CO Springs?
St. Louis has 62 sq miles of land with another 4 sq miles of water. How is that not compact, or are you talking about the larger metro area? As for Colorado Springs, it has over 3x the land area that the city of St. Louis does. To highlight St. Louis' small physical boundaries, here's a photo taken from a highrise in downtown Clayton, one of St. Louis' inner ring suburbs, looking into the city: http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...omclayton1.jpg
What actually ended up hurting St. Louis, even when it was booming, is that its borders are locked into place due to its separation from St. Louis County in the 19th century. This left the city with no ability to annex any of its surrounding streetcar suburbs like other cities did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog77
It’s so much bigger than COS that’s a hard comparison. They have a downtown and some old neighborhoods, but they haven’t come close to the level of gentrification in those neighborhoods that other cities have. That’s a plus for some and a minus for others. It’s just one of those cities where everyone who could, left the urban core and they have been slower to come back than in a lot of other places. It’s starting to happen though.
I wish I could remember the names of a few of the neighborhoods I went to. I found some funky little restaurants in some old neighborhoods that definitely felt a bit sketchy driving in, but were fine. I found an awesome brewery in Maplewood. That area seems pretty nice.
I’m serious on the recreation front, it’s so different than what I’m used to in Denver. Everyone ‘goes to the lake’. Doesn’t seem to matter which lake. There’s always a lake and people go to it. As far as dirt biking and ATVing, you have to remember that when you head east of the Rockies, there is no public land like the west has. So much is private property.
Compared to 10, 20, 30, etc years ago, St. Louis has actually seen quite a lot of gentrification for a city that's not growing. Obviously nowhere near what has and currently is happening in places in the Bay like Oakland, but still a great deal of reinvestment, renovation, and even infill across much of the central corridor and south city. The trouble is that next to none of these has gone north of Delmar into north city at this time.
As for places you visited, if you described some of them I might be able to name them. Also, Maplewood is actually one of St. Louis' inner ring suburbs.
Metro St. Louis does have plenty of outdoor recreational areas for hiking, floating, boating, etc, but the Lake of the Ozarks is a huge draw for the weekend getaway crowd. Many St. Louisan own second homes or condos there. St. Louis is also sitting at the foot of the Ozarks, so that provides for interesting outdoor scenery. Here's some examples that are within 1 to 3 hours of the city: 18 Outdoor Adventures Near St. Louis That You Have to Experience
I am not certain if or where one could go ATVing or dirt biking though because I haven't done it outside of private property.
Last edited by PerseusVeil; 07-12-2018 at 01:15 PM..
What kills St. Louis' structural density is north city. So much of it is just gone at this point from a structural standpoint. The difference is night and day when you look at the satellite images of the south city vs north city.
As for San Jose catching up, it is indeed growing and infilling, but St. Louis' cultural institutions remain hard to beat. Many of them have existed since the early 20th century, and they've continued to be cultivated ever since. St. Louis' has also finally gotten the ball rolling on expansion of its lightrail. A city tax passed in order to help fund the north/south branch of the MetroLink, and the study in regards to the line should be completed at some point this month. Early survey results reported back in January were showing a demand for it as well in terms of interest and potential use.
I also agree that I wish St. Louis could be seeing the boom that San Jose is seeing. The city is finding its footing and making important gains, but it likely won't ever see what San Jose is going through now. T
My hope is that when the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency completes its new in north city facility in the middle of next decade though that it becomes a stabilizing factor that can also lead to development.
The city is also taking a developer, Paul McKee, to court after he received hundreds of millions in incentives from the city for development in north city that never came. He's sitting on 1500 acres of land that he's neither developed or maintained.
St. Louis has 62 sq miles of land with another 4 sq miles of water. How is that not compact, or are you talking about the larger metro area? As for Colorado Springs, it has over 3x the land area that the city of St. Louis does. To highlight St. Louis' small physical boundaries, here's a photo taken from a highrise in downtown Clayton, one of St. Louis' inner ring suburbs, looking into the city: http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...omclayton1.jpg
What actually ended up hurting St. Louis, even when it was booming, is that its borders are locked into place due to its separation from St. Louis County in the 19th century. This left the city with no ability to annex any of its surrounding streetcar suburbs like other cities did.
Compared to 10, 20, 30, etc years ago, St. Louis has actually seen quite a lot of gentrification for a city that's not growing. Obviously nowhere near what has and currently is happening in places in the Bay like Oakland, but still a great deal of reinvestment, renovation, and even infill across much of the central corridor and south city. The trouble is that next to none of these has gone north of Delmar into north city at this time.
As for places you visited, if you described some of them I might be able to name them. Also, Maplewood is actually one of St. Louis' inner ring suburbs.
Metro St. Louis does have plenty of outdoor recreational areas for hiking, floating, boating, etc, but the Lake of the Ozarks is a huge draw for the weekend getaway crowd. Many St. Louisan own second homes or condos there. St. Louis is also sitting at the foot of the Ozarks, so that provides for interesting outdoor scenery. Here's some examples that are within 1 to 3 hours of the city: 18 Outdoor Adventures Near St. Louis That You Have to Experience
I am not certain if or where one could go ATVing or dirt biking though because I haven't done it outside of private property.
I've read posts describing north city as analogous to Chicago's South Side which seems pretty appropriate. It's too bad there's nothing like a Hyde Park to help anchor at least part of north city. Do you have any info on the proposed path and timeline for this north-south Metrolink extension?
St. Louis not even being the capital of a county shared with its neighboring areas does seem to hurt.
I've read posts describing north city as analogous to Chicago's South Side which seems pretty appropriate. It's too bad there's nothing like a Hyde Park to help anchor at least part of north city. Do you have any info on the proposed path and timeline for this north-south Metrolink extension?
St. Louis not even being the capital of a county shared with its neighboring areas does seem to hurt.
Yeah, and the interesting thing is north city actually has better natural flow into downtown and the rest of the central corridor than south city does. South city is separated out by I-64. Even allfuent neighborhoods like the Central West End haven't caused much spillover north of Delmar. It's mind boggling to have turn of the century mansions that will sell for a million dollars or more a few short blocks away from gripping poverty just north of Delmar.
I believe the study should have a time table when released. Last I heard though was that the city was wanting to go forward with their portions of the branch even if the county doesn't get on board. They really want to connect the new NGA facility to downtown via public transportation.
St. Louis having to act as a de facto county has hurt it immensely when it comes to regional competition. It's created an us vs them mentality when it comes to attracting new projects and development. It has also created many redundancies when it comes to levels of government and emergency services. There is a push for the city to rejoin the county as yet another municipality, but I highly doubt the county officials in Clayton would ever agree to have St. Louis becoming the seat.
I recieved an email this past week stating that the study of the north south MetroLink line has been completed and is moving on to the next phase.
From the map it looks like the start of the line will be at Natural Bridge and Grand at Fairgrounds park and head east from there towards the NGA campus and go south through DT on to S. Jefferson. Last stop will be at Chippewa and Jefferson.
To make a long story short, the first phase will serve approximately 47k resident and carry an estimated 9200 passengers a day. This of course is the first phase of what I hope to be a 17 mile expansion.
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