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Interesting sub topic regarding the topic for this thread... If New England and Mid Atlantic weren't already categorized areas, how would you guys group the states and cities of the Northeast? Or do you feel New England and Mid Atlantic are the best categorization of those states?
That is an interesting question.
From the New York perspective, there is probably a good reason that New Yorkers emphasize Northeast for New York. The state is more or less in the middle of the Northeast. All other possible regions, put New York on the boundary line, cut off from one or more of her important neighbors.
Mid-Atlantic
The historic Mid-Atlantic was Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey and Delaware. But today it is has ballooned to include Maryland and the Virginias. The problem for the Mid-Atlantic for New York is that it cuts off New York from its New England neighbors, notably Connecticut and Vermont.
Upper Mid-Atlantic (New Netherland)
The original Middle Colonies. This is a more regional and historic region balanced around New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and possibly Delaware (historic). But once again, New England gets left out. Also Maryland gets left out.
New England
The map of New England IMHO actually looks better with New York included (https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/F...rdb1047755.jpg ) as New York balances Maine out with the 5 smaller states in between. However, the problem from the New York perspective is that this leaves out important states like Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masssachoicetts
If I had to redo it I would:
New England: MA, RI, ME, VT, NH
New Amsterdam: NJ, NY, CT
Mid Atlantic: DL, MD, VA, DC, PA
You would include all of upstate NY as part of "New Amsterdam"? Too NYC centric.
Here's how I would alter it; cut NY state up.
Central and western NY would still be considered Mid Atlantic. Eastern (Capital region) and North country NY could be part of New England, and Downstate/east of the Catskills would be part of New Netherlands.
NY is in a crossroads of cultures, landscapes and even economic diversity. Like Missouri, Texas, and West Virginia, there really is no way to categorize the entire state without doing a significant portion of it injustice.
I’d put some of New York in New England. Or at lest the entire eastern half above Westchester county.
Westchester County NY and Fairfield County CT could go to New England or the mid Atlantic really. Personally to me they feel like New England just focused around NYC as their main city. Albany and Troy definitely should be considered New England IMO.
I’d never put CT in the mid Atlantic it’s far too New England in terms of its look, history and governance. Nothing about it is like the mid Atlantic other than it has a small part close to NYC that’s it.
Virginia is just the south. NoVa is far too small for it to change the region of VA.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 08-24-2019 at 07:45 AM..
From the New York perspective, there is probably a good reason that New Yorkers emphasize Northeast for New York. The state is more or less in the middle of the Northeast. All other possible regions, put New York on the boundary line, cut off from one or more of her important neighbors.
Mid-Atlantic
The historic Mid-Atlantic was Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey and Delaware. But today it is has ballooned to include Maryland and the Virginias. The problem for the Mid-Atlantic for New York is that it cuts off New York from its New England neighbors, notably Connecticut and Vermont.
Upper Mid-Atlantic (New Netherland)
The original Middle Colonies. This is a more regional and historic region balanced around New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and possibly Delaware (historic). But once again, New England gets left out. Also Maryland gets left out.
New England
The map of New England IMHO actually looks better with New York included (https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/F...rdb1047755.jpg ) as New York balances Maine out with the 5 smaller states in between. However, the problem from the New York perspective is that this leaves out important states like Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
Interesting sub topic regarding the topic for this thread... If New England and Mid Atlantic weren't already categorized areas, how would you guys group the states and cities of the Northeast? Or do you feel New England and Mid Atlantic are the best categorization of those states?
The problem here to me is Mid-Atlantic being seen as a singularly Northeast region. This country has become ever more fluid by the day, and I think you have to recognize that if you're recategorizing regions...
The modern Mid-Atlantic is centered on the Washington-Baltimore megalopolis. In my experience of living within both the Northeast and the Southeast, that's people's first recognizance when someone mentions "Mid-Atlantic", and to many people, especially among a contingent that live in DC-Baltimore, that area is the border region between North and South along the East Coast...
Central Virginia (essentially the Greater Richmond region) is too connected culturally from the modern "center" of the Mid-Atlantic to be excluded. My experience on this website is that alot of people north of DC-Bmore seem to not know this, though mu experience in real life has shown a good number of people from north of the border do recognize this, so I guess the reality is somewhere in the middle. I have never seen this contended in real life, but on here including Richmond becomes contentious because people want the Mid-Atlantic to be a strictly Northeastern subregion---->which is already ironic considering anyone who considers DC or Maryland within the Mid-Atlantic has already obliviously rendered the region as not solely Northeastern anyway...
So I'd include Richmond because it's too connected to the center if the region to not be included. Whether people realize it or not--and again, many Northeasterners on here have shown that they don't--Richmond has long had more in common with parts of the Northeast megalopolis than it has with most of the South, and there are people who consider Richmond northern...
The Eastern Shore as well as Hampton Roads are culturally Mid-Atlantic and round out the southern edge if the region. I wouldn't consider anywhere else in VA Mid-Atlantic...
The rest of the M/A I'd go with the rest of Maryland, Delaware, Central Pennsylvania, and South and Central Jersey...
Greater New York City is it's own thing and is it's own super blend of cultures. Same with West Virginia, it's a unique thing on it's own island...
I can get with putting the Capital Region if New York and points north with New England...
The rest of NY and PA are not Mid-Atlantic in my opinion. They are too culturally different from the modern center of the region, DC-Bmore. I lived in Southern Tier/Western NY and I love it, nothing about the area is M/A to me. So I'd group the North-Central and Western PA, with Central and Western NY, together with a new name---->these parts of NY and PA are already so tied in with each other anyway. And though there have been many people on here to assert otherwise over the years, they aren't Midwestern. Its it's own unique sub region in the Northeast, neither Mid-Atlantic nor New England...
From the New York perspective, there is probably a good reason that New Yorkers emphasize Northeast for New York. The state is more or less in the middle of the Northeast. All other possible regions, put New York on the boundary line, cut off from one or more of her important neighbors.
Mid-Atlantic
The historic Mid-Atlantic was Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey and Delaware. But today it is has ballooned to include Maryland and the Virginias. The problem for the Mid-Atlantic for New York is that it cuts off New York from its New England neighbors, notably Connecticut and Vermont.
Upper Mid-Atlantic (New Netherland)
The original Middle Colonies. This is a more regional and historic region balanced around New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and possibly Delaware (historic). But once again, New England gets left out. Also Maryland gets left out.
New England
The map of New England IMHO actually looks better with New York included (https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/F...rdb1047755.jpg ) as New York balances Maine out with the 5 smaller states in between. However, the problem from the New York perspective is that this leaves out important states like Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
NY is in a crossroads of cultures, landscapes and even economic diversity. Like Missouri, Texas, and West Virginia, there really is no way to categorize the entire state without doing a significant portion of it injustice.
Agreed, says this native Missourian.
And after a stint in Houston to stack on top of previous repeated visits to Lufkin, a weekend in Dallas and a summer in El Paso, I think it safe to say about Texas that the old tourism slogan had it right: "It's like a whole 'nother country."
But you've also hit on the reason why the two books that have attempted to redraw the map of North America culturally - Joel Garreau's "The Nine Nations of North America" (1981) and Colin Woodard's "American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America" (2011) ignore the state borders completely.
The trouble with all three of the non-New England states that lie partly within the orbit of New York (City) is that none of them can be placed in one single region entirely.
New Jersey has been split between the two large cities that border it since the colony's establishment; in colonial days, there was even a line drawn to divide East (North) Jersey from West (South) Jersey; parts of the line survive as the border between Ocean and Burlington counties and Somerset and Hunterdon counties; the line divides Mercer County, which was formed from parts of Hunterdon, Middlesex and Burlington counties, almost neatly in two, and Mercer County today is likewise divided: the county, which had been part of the Philadelphia CSA for decades, was moved into the New York CSA in 2000 by the OMB. Yet the county remains in the Philadelphia DMA (Designated Market Area - media market).
Pennsylvania southeast of the Allegheny Mountain ridges is part of the "Northeast" or "Mid-Atlantic" while from the mountains northwest it's part of Appalachia and/or the "Midwest". A similar line that I'd draw just west of Albany, running north-south up to Albany then turning east, divides New York in two, and arguably "New Netherland" stops at the northern borders of Orange and Dutchess counties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
The problem here to me is Mid-Atlantic being seen as a singularly Northeast region. This country has become ever more fluid by the day, and I think you have to recognize that if you're recategorizing regions...
The modern Mid-Atlantic is centered on the Washington-Baltimore megalopolis. In my experience of living within both the Northeast and the Southeast, that's people's first recognizance when someone mentions "Mid-Atlantic", and to many people, especially among a contingent that live in DC-Baltimore, that area is the border region between North and South along the East Coast...
Central Virginia (essentially the Greater Richmond region) is too connected culturally from the modern "center" of the Mid-Atlantic to be excluded. My experience on this website is that alot of people north of DC-Bmore seem to not know this, though mu experience in real life has shown a good number of people from north of the border do recognize this, so I guess the reality is somewhere in the middle. I have never seen this contended in real life, but on here including Richmond becomes contentious because people want the Mid-Atlantic to be a strictly Northeastern subregion---->which is already ironic considering anyone who considers DC or Maryland within the Mid-Atlantic has already obliviously rendered the region as not solely Northeastern anyway...
So I'd include Richmond because it's too connected to the center if the region to not be included. Whether people realize it or not--and again, many Northeasterners on here have shown that they don't--Richmond has long had more in common with parts of the Northeast megalopolis than it has with most of the South, and there are people who consider Richmond northern...
The Eastern Shore as well as Hampton Roads are culturally Mid-Atlantic and round out the southern edge if the region. I wouldn't consider anywhere else in VA Mid-Atlantic...
The rest of the M/A I'd go with the rest of Maryland, Delaware, Central Pennsylvania, and South and Central Jersey...
Greater New York City is it's own thing and is it's own super blend of cultures. Same with West Virginia, it's a unique thing on it's own island...
I can get with putting the Capital Region if New York and points north with New England...
The rest of NY and PA are not Mid-Atlantic in my opinion. They are too culturally different from the modern center of the region, DC-Bmore. I lived in Southern Tier/Western NY and I love it, nothing about the area is M/A to me. So I'd group the North-Central and Western PA, with Central and Western NY, together with a new name---->these parts of NY and PA are already so tied in with each other anyway. And though there have been many people on here to assert otherwise over the years, they aren't Midwestern. Its it's own unique sub region in the Northeast, neither Mid-Atlantic nor New England...
Congratulations on completely glossing over the other major metropolis of the Mid-Atlantic region. Where would you put Philadelphia? It's definitely not part of New Netherland.
I'd say Richmond is a borderland of sorts. You can still find plenty of remnants of its role as the capital of the Confederacy, but it doesn't have that "sleepy" feel many Southern cities have. (And actually, despite some shared history, the Cavalier Commonwealth doesn't feel like the rest of the South anyway, not even Southside Virginia or the Appalachian part of the state.) IMO the only other Southern cities that match Richmond for elegance are Charleston and Savannah. (New Orleans is sui generis thanks to its French past - and Woodard puts it and most of Louisiana in "New France" along with Québec.)
And after a stint in Houston to stack on top of previous repeated visits to Lufkin, a weekend in Dallas and a summer in El Paso, I think it safe to say about Texas that the old tourism slogan had it right: "It's like a whole 'nother country."
But you've also hit on the reason why the two books that have attempted to redraw the map of North America culturally - Joel Garreau's "The Nine Nations of North America" (1981) and Colin Woodard's "American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America" (2011) ignore the state borders completely.
The trouble with all three of the non-New England states that lie partly within the orbit of New York (City) is that none of them can be placed in one single region entirely.
New Jersey has been split between the two large cities that border it since the colony's establishment; in colonial days, there was even a line drawn to divide East (North) Jersey from West (South) Jersey; parts of the line survive as the border between Ocean and Burlington counties and Somerset and Hunterdon counties; the line divides Mercer County, which was formed from parts of Hunterdon, Middlesex and Burlington counties, almost neatly in two, and Mercer County today is likewise divided: the county, which had been part of the Philadelphia CSA for decades, was moved into the New York CSA in 2000 by the OMB. Yet the county remains in the Philadelphia DMA (Designated Market Area - media market).
Pennsylvania southeast of the Allegheny Mountain ridges is part of the "Northeast" or "Mid-Atlantic" while from the mountains northwest it's part of Appalachia and/or the "Midwest". A similar line that I'd draw just west of Albany, running north-south up to Albany then turning east, divides New York in two, and arguably "New Netherland" stops at the northern borders of Orange and Dutchess counties.
Congratulations on completely glossing over the other major metropolis of the Mid-Atlantic region. Where would you put Philadelphia? It's definitely not part of New Netherland.
I'd say Richmond is a borderland of sorts. You can still find plenty of remnants of its role as the capital of the Confederacy, but it doesn't have that "sleepy" feel many Southern cities have. (And actually, despite some shared history, the Cavalier Commonwealth doesn't feel like the rest of the South anyway, not even Southside Virginia or the Appalachian part of the state.) IMO the only other Southern cities that match Richmond for elegance are Charleston and Savannah. (New Orleans is sui generis thanks to its French past - and Woodard puts it and most of Louisiana in "New France" along with Québec.)
I thought I mentioned Philly and SEPA with South Central PA in the Mid-Atlantic, that was a typo!
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