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Yeah, Delaware is by no means a southern state. It is even excluded by the much debated Mason Dixon, which has a near 90 degree angle bend in it, where it becomes the DE/MD border.
Maryland has far more claim to being southern, and even that has been eroded naturally to the point where MD is clearly northeastern today, save for a small part in the southeast. It was not even southern enough to be part of the Confederacy, even if there was support there for it (and there was). It simply was not enough, the state was more Union than southern even then.
Maryland didn't secede primarily due to Lincoln's direct intervention to prevent DC from being completely surrounded by Confederate territory. That's not to say it would have seceded otherwise but I'm not sure it can said that it wasn't "Southern enough" to secede. The domestic slave trade was pretty big business in Maryland.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
Maryland didn't secede primarily due to Lincoln's direct intervention to prevent DC from being completely surrounded by Confederate territory. That's not to say it would have seceded otherwise but I'm not sure it can said that it wasn't "Southern enough" to secede. The domestic slave trade was pretty big business in Maryland.
But that Lincoln was able to pull that off is proof enough that Maryland was no Alabama. If the capital was in, say, North Carolina he never would have been able to claim the state so easily for the Union.
But that Lincoln was able to pull that off is proof enough that Maryland was no Alabama. If the capital was in, say, North Carolina he never would have been able to claim the state so easily for the Union.
You speak as if Licoln just merely suggested that they stay. It was a divided state and his actions towards MD would (the Union Army literally had to hold a gun to MD's head, in the form of canons on Federal Hill pointed towards Baltimore's high commercial area on top of jailing prominent people, all to ensure that Maryland move correctly) lead one to see that he thought MD was leaning towards flipping ... Anyway, I don't want to go deep in this thread but I admit that this narrative triggers a response from me. Carry on....does New England stand a chance on this poll?
But that Lincoln was able to pull that off is proof enough that Maryland was no Alabama. If the capital was in, say, North Carolina he never would have been able to claim the state so easily for the Union.
Of course Maryland wasn't Alabama but it's also a pretty small state which made it relatively easier for Lincoln to achieve his goals there.
You speak as if Licoln just merely suggested that they stay. It was a divided state and his actions towards MD would (the Union Army literally had to hold a gun to MD's head, in the form of canons on Federal Hill pointed towards Baltimore's high commercial area on top of jailing prominent people, all to ensure that Maryland move correctly) lead one to see that he thought MD was leaning towards flipping ... Anyway, I don't want to go deep in this thread but I admit that this narrative triggers a response from me. Carry on....does New England stand a chance on this poll?
"Avenge the patriotic gore
that filled the streets of Baltimore"
--Couplet from "Maryland, My Maryland"
This is what the writer of that verse was referring to, specifically, Union troops occupying the city as described above.
But if I might throw another small Mason-Dixon-Line-blurring monkey wrench in this:
There was actually some pro-Southern sentiment in Philadelphia as well, even though slavery had been abolished in Pennsylvania.
In front of the building that houses the studios of our public TV station and NPR affiliate, WHYY, on Independence Mall West (North 6th Street) is a state historical marker that reads:
"PENNSYLVANIA HALL
"Built on this site in 1838 by the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society as a meeting place for abolitionists, this hall was burned to the ground by anti-Black rioters three days after it was first opened."
This, 70 years after the first recorded protest against slavery in the United States, made by the German Pietists who settled Germantown, now a neighborhood in northwest Philadelphia, to the community's Quaker meeting (the Quakers declined to endorse the petition, but many would come around over the decades that followed, and a Quaker - along with former slaveowner Benjamin Franklin, whose views about blacks changed after he visited Samuel Johnson's school for free blacks in London - was one of the founders of the nation's first abolitionist society, the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery and the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage - the group that built Pennsylvania Hall).
Also: the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, the nation's first, had trained just about all of the doctors in the South on the eve of the war.
So perhaps the confusion about our southern neighbor is warranted.
(By the way, Mason and Dixon also surveyed Delaware's circular northern border, which was located 10 miles from New Castle Court House, as stipulated in the survey documents for establishing the border between William Penn's and Lord Calvert's territories. The arc met the main survey line in such a way that a small wedge of land was in effect unclaimed; that land became part of Delaware.)
"Avenge the patriotic gore
that filled the streets of Baltimore"
--Couplet from "Maryland, My Maryland"
This is what the writer of that verse was referring to, specifically, Union troops occupying the city as described above.
But if I might throw another small Mason-Dixon-Line-blurring monkey wrench in this:
There was actually some pro-Southern sentiment in Philadelphia as well, even though slavery had been abolished in Pennsylvania.
In front of the building that houses the studios of our public TV station and NPR affiliate, WHYY, on Independence Mall West (North 6th Street) is a state historical marker that reads:
"PENNSYLVANIA HALL
"Built on this site in 1838 by the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society as a meeting place for abolitionists, this hall was burned to the ground by anti-Black rioters three days after it was first opened."
This, 70 years after the first recorded protest against slavery in the United States, made by the German Pietists who settled Germantown, now a neighborhood in northwest Philadelphia, to the community's Quaker meeting (the Quakers declined to endorse the petition, but many would come around over the decades that followed, and a Quaker - along with former slaveowner Benjamin Franklin, whose views about blacks changed after he visited Samuel Johnson's school for free blacks in London - was one of the founders of the nation's first abolitionist society, the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery and the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage - the group that built Pennsylvania Hall).
Also: the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, the nation's first, had trained just about all of the doctors in the South on the eve of the war.
So perhaps the confusion about our southern neighbor is warranted.
(By the way, Mason and Dixon also surveyed Delaware's circular northern border, which was located 10 miles from New Castle Court House, as stipulated in the survey documents for establishing the border between William Penn's and Lord Calvert's territories. The arc met the main survey line in such a way that a small wedge of land was in effect unclaimed; that land became part of Delaware.)
Good info brought out. With that said, PA had no shot at flipping and the news on PA is kin the same class as NYC and their slave markets and some insurance companies that made extra cash for it. Thing is that the Northern states saw more profits outside of forced labor. "Maryland, my Maryland" is an interesting song and I wonder if people are still trying to change songs or get the lyrics scrubbed. Anyway, MD has a strong connection to the Northeast, borders the undisputed South, and Ohio isn't far away. All of that adds up to the newer Middle-Atlantic definition (not the original Middle Colonies).
(The reference to "hireling or slave" in that verse refers to the Colonial Marines, a naval regiment the British formed specifically to recruit slaves to their side in the War of 1812; the recruits were promised freedom in exchange for their service to the Crown.)
(The reference to "hireling or slave" in that verse refers to the Colonial Marines, a naval regiment the British formed specifically to recruit slaves to their side in the War of 1812; the recruits were promised freedom in exchange for their service to the Crown.)
Yes, yes. Years back, many of the MD posters mentioned how they were unaware of the subject matter in their state song because they went over the PC parts or whatever just like most do with the star spangled banner.
Driving through the Princeton region recently has opened up my eyes to the mass amount of Colonial influence that still lives and breathes here. Honestly, much of Central NJ (Middlesex, Monmouth, Mercer, Somerset areas) still has a lot of 'New Englandness' influence, especially since much of this region was unsettled by the Dutch colonists (they mainly settled up in North NJ/NYC area). The first settlers in this region came around the time NJ (at the time split between West/East Jersey) NY, PA, & DE were purchased by the British in 1665, in which the settlers that came were by and large English. You really see that in much of the historic architecture in this area, such as the Thomas Clarke house at Princeton Battlefield, the Walker-Combs Farmstead close to Monmouth Battlefield, and the Rockingham House (the last headquarters for George Washington) near Rocky Hill.
It's not 'New England' in a political sense, but I genuinely believe that when describing the Northeast (the Mid-Atlantic in particular) there should be a distinction between the areas that have much more of a 'Neo New World'/Pre Revolution Anglo influence (Long Island, Central Jersey, parts of PA/Eastern Upstate NY), regions with more of a 'Quaker'/Revolution era Anglo influence (Philadelphia, South Jersey, Delaware/Maryland regions), and the regions with a Dutch influence (New York City, North Jersey, Hudson Valley regions).
New England wants NO Part of New York, ,New England is separated from New York state and the rest of the country by the Hudson River and a twenty mile no mans land, between the river and New England. We need Trump to build a wall along the western NE states.
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