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That map is all wrong....You didn't include PA and CT.
I don't know everything,but when I notice something very odd,I like to offer my opinion with questions as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu
So your opinion is that a few counties literally a mile outside of Manhattan that has literal hundreds of thousands of people living in it commuting into Manhattan 5 times a week for work as well as having numerous multi national corporations with huge offices there shouldn't be part of a metropolitan area? Because it's part of a different state, even though it's only a mile away. Got it.
NYC will not be adding new states into its metro anytime soon if ever. It literally makes no sense to add new states to the New York MSA probably ever. At least not in our lifetimes.
Also, LOL "my beloved NYC" - NYC isn't even my favorite US city. Furthermore, my entire dad's side is from LA and my cousin served on the LA City Council for over a decade. What I'm stating is a fact about how this all works. You might learn a thing or two if you actually cared to realize you might not know everything.
That map is all wrong....You didn't include PA and CT.
I don't know everything,but when I notice something very odd,I like to offer my opinion with questions as well.
No, it's not. That was not the point of the map. You have stated numerous times that other states outside of New York do not belong in the NYC metro area. I was showing you just how close another state is - New Jersey. Now you say "it's all wrong". For the record, I actually agree about Pike County, PA - but it's only 56,000 people so sure, take it away. Doesn't really change much. Almost nobody lives in Pike County, PA. Entire states are not included in metro areas - it's counties. NYC metro area has exactly 1 county from PA included in it (Pike County - 56,000 people). Actually Connecticut isn't included in the MSA - it's only in the CMSA, so this is a moot point, but just to show this.
Here's another map showing how close Connecticut is to NYC. From Greenwich, CT to the largest park in NYC, Pelham Bay Park, it's 14.5 miles:
And here is the distance from the closest part of Orange County, CA in La Palma, CA to the closest part of the city of Los Angeles. This is 14.9 miles - nearly equal to the distance of Connecticut to NYC (Bronx)
Here's Jersey City, New Jersey to the World Trade Center in Manhattan. Less than a 1.5 mile walk/ferry ride:
Here is the western part of Irvine, CA (in Orange County) to the eastern edge of the city of Los Angeles at just under 36 miles away:
Here is Stamford, Connecticut to the middle of Central Park in Manhattan at just over 30 miles away:
Last edited by marothisu; 04-15-2019 at 08:44 PM..
Metropolitan L.A is all within the State of California,so anyone within the Metropolitan Area of L.A can say they are part of L.A and they can say they are a Californian.
Here comes the really strange part.
NYC Metro covers New York State,New Jersey,Connecticut and Pennsylvania and yet they are all considered New Yorkers and a part of NYC
All this confusion has caused you to post maps,because it really is strange and confusing when you think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu
No, it's not. That was not the point of the map. You have stated numerous times that other states outside of New York do not belong in the NYC metro area. I was showing you just how close another state is - New Jersey. Now you say "it's all wrong". For the record, I actually agree about Pike County, PA - but it's only 56,000 people so sure, take it away. Doesn't really change much. Almost nobody lives in Pike County, PA. Entire states are not included in metro areas - it's counties. NYC metro area has exactly 1 county from PA included in it (Pike County - 56,000 people).
Here's another map showing how close Connecticut is to NYC. From Greenwich, CT to the largest park in NYC, Pelham Bay Park, it's 14.5 miles:
And here is the distance from the closest part of Orange County, CA in La Palma, CA to the closest part of the city of Los Angeles. This is 14.9 miles - nearly equal to the distance of Connecticut to NYC (Bronx)
Metropolitan L.A is all within the State of California,so anyone within the Metropolitan Area of L.A can say they are part of L.A and they can say they are a Californian.
Here comes the really strange part.
NYC Metro covers New York State,New Jersey,Connecticut and Pennsylvania and yet they are all considered New Yorkers and a part of NYC
All this confusion has caused you to post maps,because it really is strange and confusing when you think about it.
1) Not a single county in Connecticut is part of the NYC MSA. It's in the CMSA and nobody is talking about that. So this is a moot point.
2) Only 1 county from Pennsylvania is in the NYC MSA - its population is about 56,000. Sure, throw it out. It won't make a difference. I don't even agree it should be in the MSA but its population is so small at 56,000 that it makes no impact on anything here by removing it.
3) The fact that you think that a city that is a mile away from New York City (Manhattan) shouldn't be included in the MSA only because it's in another state is just plain naive and ignorant. You clearly do not understand economics of geographies. You think that the only thing the matters is a political border of a state when in fact that doesn't matter. It's about economics and commute patterns in the end. There are counties 30 miles away from NYC that are included in its MSA that are in New York State - the fact that you think those should be included and not a county in New Jersey only a mile away tells me everything I need to know about you.
4) There are 45 metropolitan areas in the US which span over multiple states. Are you saying that all of those should not include the other states as well? What about Kansas City which is a city that exists in both Kansas and Missouri? Let's not talk about NYC now - what about Washington DC? DC is a city-state - no other states should be part of that and DC at about 700K should be the metro area? What about Philadelphia? Chicago? St. Louis? Boston?
Well in that case...NYC Metro will take up the entire Northeast since boundaries are just lines on paper.
I realize you're being sarcastic here, but as a resident of the one US city that is at once its own metropolitan center yet whose metropolitan area bumps up against New York's:
If the commuting patterns and spread of development ever got to the point where that was the case, yes, it would.
Take a look at Mercer County, N.J., on the east bank of the Delaware River about 45 miles northeast of Philadelphia.
Even before New York and Philadelphia grew to the point where their hinterlands touched each other, this county that's home to New Jersey's state capital of Trenton was a meeting point for the two: in 1746, the Presbytery of New York and the Presbytery of Philadelphia, each of which wished to establish a college, decided to go in on one together and chose a location exactly halfway between the two cities. We know that college today as Princeton University.
And for most of the latter half of the 20th century, the Federal government - not "New York" or "Philadelphia" - included Mercer County in the Philadelphia metropolitan statistical area, and later, the consolidated statistical area. That's because a sufficiently high percentage of residents in the Philadelphia metro and Mercer County commuted to work in the other jurisdiction.
The growth of employment centers around Princeton that have attracted residents to Mercer and adjacent counties have changed the commuting patterns, and as a result, Mercer County got moved out of the Philadelphia CSA and into New York's in 2000.
It's also the case that more people move between New York and Philadelphia each year than between any other pair of cities in the U.S. And others live in one of these two cities and work in the other; the more common arrangement is living in Philadelphia, where housing costs less, and working in New York.
So there is a sense in which the two metropolises overlap already. And none of this respects state borders.
Metropolitan L.A is all within the State of California,so anyone within the Metropolitan Area of L.A can say they are part of L.A and they can say they are a Californian.
Here comes the really strange part.
NYC Metro covers New York State,New Jersey,Connecticut and Pennsylvania and yet they are all considered New Yorkers and a part of NYC
All this confusion has caused you to post maps,because it really is strange and confusing when you think about it.
It's not as "strange and confusing" as you assert it is when you consider how metropolitan regions work - as I said, they're no respecters of state borders. And the people who live in a multi-state metro area will identify themselves as residents of both the state they live in and the core city of the metro once outside it.
Within Greater New York, people will say they're from White Plains, or Hoboken, or Newark, or Rye, or the Bronx (within the City of New York itself, people identify with their borough). When in, say, LA, all these people will say they're from "New York" - or "outside (or near) New York" because most people don't know the individual lesser communities surrounding the core. (Newark, N.J., may be an exception to this rule.) And so it is with any large metropolitan area.
Maybe you need to turn your gaze away from New York City and towards the city I was born and raised in - Kansas City, Mo.
My hometown was the first of the three political jurisdictions bearing the name of the "People of the South Wind" (second of four if you count Arkansas, which is the French word for the tribe) to use it: it was incorporated as the Town of Kansas in 1850, four years before the Kansas-Nebraska Act created the Kansas Territory immediately to the town's west. The city of the same name in Kansas was established in 1858 and combined with four other, larger communities to form Kansas City, Kan., in 1886.
Two cities, two states, one name. Confused yet? Many are. The Associated Press Stylebook requires the state name following both in datelines even though the city in Missouri is large enough for its name to stand alone with no state after it because of this. Within the metropolitan area, the practice is to omit the state name when speaking of Kansas City, Mo., and use it when speaking of Kansas City, Kan. Or they refer to the latter as "KCK" or "the 'Dotte" (after its county, Wyandotte, with which it merged in the early 1990s).
Within the metro area, the state line looms large; we fought the dress rehearsal for the Civil War across it. The metropolitan population is nearly evenly split between the two states, making KC unusual among bi-state metro areas, most of whose residents live in the state with the core city elsewhere.
But beyond it, people with no familiarity with the local political geography routinely get confused in the way you say people should be - but aren't - about New York. If I tell people around Philly that I'm from "Kansas City" (and I am - I didn't live in Raytown or Indepedence (Mo.) or Overland Park or Prairie Village (Kan.)), I will often get in reply, "So what was it like growing up in Kansas?"
My arch reply: "If I were from Kansas City, Kansas, I would have said so."
Some will ask, "Kansas or Missouri?" They get points for knowing the local geography.
But many think the region's core city is the one in Kansas. It's not - it's the smaller of the two, and many Missourians do get annoyed about this.
Most Californians I know, however, don't get confused like this - and I attribute that to the (observed, on my part) fact that many Angelenos especially have relatives in the region (in the summer, California license plates became almost as numerous as Missouri and Kansas plates on cars traveling about Kansas City, and I have several relatives who live in and around LA myself, including a great-aunt who lived in Baldwin Hills).
Metropolitan L.A is all within the State of California,so anyone within the Metropolitan Area of L.A can say they are part of L.A and they can say they are a Californian.
Here comes the really strange part.
NYC Metro covers New York State,New Jersey,Connecticut and Pennsylvania and yet they are all considered New Yorkers and a part of NYC
All this confusion has caused you to post maps,because it really is strange and confusing when you think about it.
Until you're fighting to get rid of all parts of an UA or MSA across state boundaries, your opinion is irrelevant. You're welcome to an opinion, but your opinion is still wrong and baseless and makes you sound really ignorant.
State borders are just political borders that serve only to split up governance. They do not split up cultures or economies. The North NJ and NYC economies are so intrinsically tied together that is literally impossible to break them up. By your own logic, how can a city or a county include population outside its own political governance? SF should not be able to include San Mateo, Marin, Contra Costa or Alameda Counties. LA cannot include Orange, Ventura, San Bernardino or Riverside Counties. Miami cannot include Broward or Palm Beach Counties.
And please enlighten us. Should Turkey, as an entire nation, be split into two? One European side and one Asian side? Should Istanbul be forced to split into the two sides as well, since how on Earth could residents of that city be in two different CONTINENTS at one time. I mean wow it's bad enough that someone can be in two different states, but two continents is so extreme.
If you were to split up NNJ from NYC, DE and SNJ from Philly, MD and NoVa from DC, etc. what would those other regions even be The entire purpose of a MSA is commuting patters. There would be basically no definition of a commuting pattern in NNJ, DE, SNJ, MD, or NoVa in that situation as they are highly reliant on the dominant city of the metro. And when it comes to NNJ, DE, and SNJ, they share cultural aspects such as foods, history, and accents. A political boundary does not and never will divide up a culture or economy. They are arbitrary lines drawn on a map, that people, culture, economies, etc. can easily transcend.
Tijuana borders SoCA, and the rule is any city that is part of a different country can't be included in a USA metro. It's why Windsor is not included in Detroit's MSA, even though it may have more in common with it than the largest city in Ontario, Canada. And Seattle and Vancouver can never belong to the same metro, no matter how connected they might become in the future.
The more complicated question, from a social perspective, is what defines a suburb? I mean, in multi-state metros it's not always that cities in a different state are necessarily viewed as being suburbs of the principal city. I very much doubt people in NYC view Newark as one of its suburb. It's probably the same case with Camden in relations to Philadelphia. Hell, here in Chicagoland I've never heard anyone(except here on city-data) regard Gary as a suburb- given it's history was virtually a stand-alone city despite its closeness. Even in single-state metros like LA, I don't think Long Beach is a suburb, but is rather a secondary city.
Tijuana borders SoCA, and the rule is any city that is part of a different country can't be included in a USA metro. It's why Windsor is not included in Detroit's MSA, even though it may have more in common with it than the largest city in Ontario, Canada. And Seattle and Vancouver can never belong to the same metro, no matter how connected they might become in the future.
The more complicated question, from a social perspective, is what defines a suburb? I mean, in multi-state metros it's not always that cities in a different state are necessarily viewed as being suburbs of the principal city. I very much doubt people in NYC view Newark as one of its suburb. It's probably the same case with Camden in relations to Philadelphia. Hell, here in Chicagoland I've never heard anyone(except here on city-data) regard Gary as a suburb- given it's history was virtually a stand-alone city despite its closeness. Even in single-state metros like LA, I don't think Long Beach is a suburb, but is rather a secondary city.
A city can start as a stand-alone city, but be enveloped into the metro area as a suburb. If people in that city generally rely on the larger nearby city for their services, culture, employment, etc., it's no longer a purely stand-alone city. Newark was a stand-alone, but got enveloped by the NYC metro. It retains its own culture and identity separate and apart from classically suburban areas, but what areas began as suburbs of Newark exclusively have now become shared with NYC commuters and culture. OTOH, Jersey City and Hoboken have always been a part of NYC's sphere of influence more so than anything else, or even themselves. Therefore, I don't consider JC or Hoboken suburbs or satellite cities of NYC. I consider them just an urban extension of NYC.
LBC is harder because I wouldn't really say it has its own historic suburbs like Newark did, but its individual identity stands out to people that understand SoCal and its cultures. It's not a suburb, not as tied to LA as JC/Hoboken, and not as individual as Newark.
Tijuana borders SoCA, and the rule is any city that is part of a different country can't be included in a USA metro. It's why Windsor is not included in Detroit's MSA, even though it may have more in common with it than the largest city in Ontario, Canada. And Seattle and Vancouver can never belong to the same metro, no matter how connected they might become in the future.
The more complicated question, from a social perspective, is what defines a suburb? I mean, in multi-state metros it's not always that cities in a different state are necessarily viewed as being suburbs of the principal city. I very much doubt people in NYC view Newark as one of its suburb. It's probably the same case with Camden in relations to Philadelphia. Hell, here in Chicagoland I've never heard anyone(except here on city-data) regard Gary as a suburb- given it's history was virtually a stand-alone city despite its closeness. Even in single-state metros like LA, I don't think Long Beach is a suburb, but is rather a secondary city.
Newark is not a suburb of NYC. It is a city that is part of the NYC MSA. Nothing else. Much like Fort Lauderdale is not a suburb of Miami.
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