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Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,538,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation
When people think of Virginia, they think of NOVA. No one really thinks of southwest VA. Honestly, those extreme parts of western VA have far more to do with Kentucky and West Virginia than they do with anything east of I-81.
I... know. I'm not sure where I prompted that reply? I never even mentioned NOVA, really.
After the thought I put into my response to you I'm a little disappointed that you seem to have taken nothing away from it.
I... know. I'm not sure where I prompted that reply? I never even mentioned NOVA, really.
After the thought I put into my response to you I'm a little disappointed that you seem to have taken nothing away from it.
I'm sorry that you felt that way. I thought the post was very informative.
With that said, a lot of the regions people automatically assume as "coal country" in Virginia actually had very little to do with coal at all and were always dirt poor.
Most of the counties around me in northeast TN are distressed. My two most recent counties of residence are both "transitional," but there are significant differences in the QoL between the two counties. Some counties north of Roanoke are "competitive," but I would wager they are overall not as nice as Washington County, TN, which has a large regional university, and is "transitional."
These metrics mean something, but they aren't gospel truth. NY is so much richer as a state than VA that there is more to go around to all areas.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,538,032 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation
I'm sorry that you felt that way. I thought the post was very informative.
With that said, a lot of the regions people automatically assume as "coal country" in Virginia actually had very little to do with coal at all and were always dirt poor.
Most of the counties around me in northeast TN are distressed. My two most recent counties of residence are both "transitional," but there are significant differences in the QoL between the two counties. Some counties north of Roanoke are "competitive," but I would wager they are overall not as nice as Washington County, TN, which has a large regional university, and is "transitional."
These metrics mean something, but they aren't gospel truth. NY is so much richer as a state than VA that there is more to go around to all areas.
My bad then! I suppose I was blind-sided a bit. haha I apologize for the assumption.
NY is for sure a richer state. Though it must be said that it is not in the shining condition most people assume it is. For example, a lot of people from New England consider driving into upstate NY to be "stepping down", if you know what I mean.
As an example, while in recent times things are getting cleaned up, a lot of rural NY is run down or flat out abandoned. Buffalo was pretty much in the same shape as Detroit before the state grant to demolish homes, smaller cities like Elmira are still in rough shape, so forth. Our infrastructure is leaning towards garbage too, despite state money.
I think one of the biggest problems is the cost of living. If you make $40K a year in NY, it will not net you as comfortable a life as it might in say, Ohio or certainly WV. I only mention that because of a Kentucky representatives pseudo-famous remark in regard to the Appalachian regional commission; "Only in NY would that be considered poor". What he lacked was insight into expense ratios as compared to KY, and that "median income" here is always skewed by rich retirees on lakes.
That said, NY is able to invest a ton of money into public services. Something I fully acknowledge is much better here than in other states. On the flip side, you are far, far more likely to benefit from it if you are a minority or illegal immigrant. Poor whites have a harder time getting the help they need.
In short, the state is richer than VA by a notable margin, but that is not as deeply reflected in everyday life or physical condition as one may assume, unless you live in one of the overly affluent areas. Class segregation in NY is often quite stark.
The economic stuff aside, I am only referencing coal country insofar as you did in your original post. No worries about confusing Virginian regions from me. I try my best to know at least the basics of what I am talking about. haha
Recent statistics actually indicate that New York is a less well off state overall than Virginia. See the numbers here: ACS Profile Report Both median household and median family incomes for the 2013-2017 period are about $6,000 higher in Virginia, and the poverty rate is about 4% lower compared to New York.
It's true that the most prosperous part of Virginia is in a metropolitan area where the urban core is (barely) outside the state - but Virginia itself comprises the largest portion of the Washington metro. It is also true that New York doesn't have any coal mining areas, nor does it have characteristically Deep South rural counties like Virginia. But such areas make up a small proportion of Virginia's population - especially compared to vast low income sections of Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, assorted parts of Long Island and satellite cities like Newburgh, and not to mention less prosperous parts of upstate New York, both urban and rural.
Returning to the key topic of this thread, southwest Virginia appears to be pretty marginalized at the state level in the context of today. It's significantly out of alignment with the state as a whole in terms of politics and demographics as well as the economy. One of the previous posts made the salient point that much of the southwest is closer to capitals in other states than it is to Richmond, and at the very opposite end of the state from the highly wealthy and productive DC suburbs. Upstate New York is a comparatively larger region, and although it is very different from NYC, it does not appear to be so irrelevant and marginal at the state level.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,538,032 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by jas75
Recent statistics actually indicate that New York is a less well off state overall than Virginia. See the numbers here: ACS Profile Report Both median household and median family incomes for the 2013-2017 period are about $6,000 higher in Virginia, and the poverty rate is about 4% lower compared to New York.
It's true that the most prosperous part of Virginia is in a metropolitan area where the urban core is (barely) outside the state - but Virginia itself comprises the largest portion of the Washington metro. It is also true that New York doesn't have any coal mining areas, nor does it have characteristically Deep South rural counties like Virginia. But such areas make up a small proportion of Virginia's population - especially compared to vast low income sections of Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, assorted parts of Long Island and satellite cities like Newburgh, and not to mention less prosperous parts of upstate New York, both urban and rural.
Returning to the key topic of this thread, southwest Virginia appears to be pretty marginalized at the state level in the context of today. It's significantly out of alignment with the state as a whole in terms of politics and demographics as well as the economy. One of the previous posts made the salient point that much of the southwest is closer to capitals in other states than it is to Richmond, and at the very opposite end of the state from the highly wealthy and productive DC suburbs. Upstate New York is a comparatively larger region, and although it is very different from NYC, it does not appear to be so irrelevant and marginal at the state level.
My bad then! I suppose I was blind-sided a bit. haha I apologize for the assumption.
NY is for sure a richer state. Though it must be said that it is not in the shining condition most people assume it is. For example, a lot of people from New England consider driving into upstate NY to be "stepping down", if you know what I mean.
As an example, while in recent times things are getting cleaned up, a lot of rural NY is run down or flat out abandoned. Buffalo was pretty much in the same shape as Detroit before the state grant to demolish homes, smaller cities like Elmira are still in rough shape, so forth. Our infrastructure is leaning towards garbage too, despite state money.
I think one of the biggest problems is the cost of living. If you make $40K a year in NY, it will not net you as comfortable a life as it might in say, Ohio or certainly WV. I only mention that because of a Kentucky representatives pseudo-famous remark in regard to the Appalachian regional commission; "Only in NY would that be considered poor". What he lacked was insight into expense ratios as compared to KY, and that "median income" here is always skewed by rich retirees on lakes.
That said, NY is able to invest a ton of money into public services. Something I fully acknowledge is much better here than in other states. On the flip side, you are far, far more likely to benefit from it if you are a minority or illegal immigrant. Poor whites have a harder time getting the help they need.
In short, the state is richer than VA by a notable margin, but that is not as deeply reflected in everyday life or physical condition as one may assume, unless you live in one of the overly affluent areas. Class segregation in NY is often quite stark.
The economic stuff aside, I am only referencing coal country insofar as you did in your original post. No worries about confusing Virginian regions from me. I try my best to know at least the basics of what I am talking about. haha
A lot of those problems are NY state taxes being burdensome, no matter whether you live in NYC or an otherwise cheaper part of the state. Some of that funds needed social services, but for a lot of folks, the extra taxes paid feels wasteful.
VA may be a blue state, but most of southwest VA is extremely red, and VA being blue is relatively recent. Even then, VA's shade of blue is drastically different than NY/New England - VA Democrats are far more "corporate," and there's very little of an AOC type presence in VA.
I'm very familiar with Bristol, VA. The city of Bristol, VA is in a state of fiscal distress due to an ill-advised venture for a shopping center that hasn't yet come to fruition. VA laws basically prohibit annexation, and the city of Bristol can't gobble up prosperous parts of Washington County, VA, like the Bristol, TN counterpart can gobble up on its side of the board for additional tax revenue.
In spite of all these issues, Bristol, VA has three breweries that I can think of, one of which is among the top in all of VA (IMO) and the other two get great weekend traffic. The Bristol Hotel is the swankiest hotel between Knoxville and Roanoke. Many restaurants have patios down State Street. Blackbird Bakery has been voted among the best in Virginia many years in a row, and there are always people outside eating donuts and sipping coffee well into the night. There is a chain wing place that has biker nights, outdoor concerts, etc.
The place does not seem nearly as destitute as the numbers would lead you to believe.
Once you get outside Bristol, Wytheville (about an hour up I-81) is the nearest decent sized city, and there's not much between Wytheville and the edges of metro Roanoke.
Roanoke has a decent downtown, but is otherwise downright dismal. I've been there twice in the past year and I thought it was awful. Much worse than Bristol.
Western VA as a whole might be less like Upstate NY and more like Western PA in terms of certain issues and concerns they face from energy, environment, politics and economics. Portions of all 3 states overlay the Marcellus Shale, which has brought the concerns of fracking to the fore. Then you have gaps in economic prosperity, issues of substance abuse, etc. When I think of the cities to the southwest of Roanoke like the Bristols, Pulaskis and Buena Vistas, etc., I think more of Altoona and Johnstown than Buffalo, Rochester, or even Elmira and Binghamton in the southern tier. There are bright spots and Roanoke is a growing area. But overall, I just think Upstate NY is more prosperous than SW or far SWVA (Appalachia) perhaps with some bias since I lived in vibrant Ithaca for several years. There might be some cosmetic similarities with Upstate NY, but imho, that's about it.
And Virginia might appear compact on a map, but it is a very long state. Imagine, it takes 10 hours to get from Cumberland Gap State park in SWVA to VA Beach on the coast. I can't imagine sitting say, in Richmond, for example, and my state capital being in Indianapolis. At that point, they're really closer to St. Louis and Chicago anyway. Seems weird for an East Coast State. For people in NOVA and Eastern VA, their issues are worlds away and they just don't get the same kind of attention.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,538,032 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquest1
Western VA as a whole might be less like Upstate NY and more like Western PA in terms of certain issues and concerns they face from energy, environment, politics and economics. Portions of all 3 states overlay the Marcellus Shale, which has brought the concerns of fracking to the fore. Then you have gaps in economic prosperity, issues of substance abuse, etc. When I think of the cities to the southwest of Roanoke like the Bristols, Pulaskis and Buena Vistas, etc., I think more of Altoona and Johnstown than Buffalo, Rochester, or even Elmira and Binghamton in the southern tier. There are bright spots and Roanoke is a growing area. But overall, I just think Upstate NY is more prosperous than SW or far SWVA (Appalachia) perhaps with some bias since I lived in vibrant Ithaca for several years. There might be some cosmetic similarities with Upstate NY, but imho, that's about it.
And Virginia might appear compact on a map, but it is a very long state. Imagine, it takes 10 hours to get from Cumberland Gap State park in SWVA to VA Beach on the coast. I can't imagine sitting say, in Richmond, for example, and my state capital being in Indianapolis. At that point, they're really closer to St. Louis and Chicago anyway. Seems weird for an East Coast State. For people in NOVA and Eastern VA, their issues are worlds away and they just don't get the same kind of attention.
Ithaca and Cornell are very much a little bubble of its own self-involved world. Ithaca and northern Tompkins county are not good indicators of upstate as a whole, and most of the urbanized portion of the county is populated by old money from other parts of NY and families from states further east. THAT said, an off the beaten path drive through southern Tompkins county is quite revealing of the hidden "underclass". Hell, even a west-bound jaunt down 13 will show you how fast things morph back into northern Appalachia outside of Ithaca/Cornell.
You'd likely think a bit differently if you were living in Elmira instead. Ithaca's political atmosphere is even removed from its neighbors.
We often refer to that area as a few miles of crazy surrounded by the real world. Tompkins would be more like semi-rural NOVA.
I can also personally remember a time when Ithaca was not as impressive as it is today. Back in the early and mid nineties it was still pretty rust-belty outside of the high end neighborhoods, and Lansing was really rough outside of the immediate Pyramid mall area. Further, a ton of those big fancy McMansions around the Lansing area today were not there then, back then it was trees and some long since removed abandoned farm houses.
In short, Ithaca/Cornell exists largely in a bubble.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,538,032 times
Reputation: 6253
Also, I didn't think to clarify this yesterday, but I think the OP was more thinking about all of inland VA outside of NOVA rather than just the extreme west of it.
Like I said before, the only part of NY with that kind of disconnection is in north country, and a small community or two hidden in the Catskills or Allegany county.
So my posts have mostly been taking the whole highland interior state of Virginia into consideration, save for NOVA.
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