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Why would Miami be above Seattle? Seattle has a rapidly-expanding, mostly grade-separated light metro system including a 10-mile subway tunnel through the city, and a second subway tunnel through the urban core is currently under development. Combine this with one of best bus systems in the country and much higher public transit mode-share and ridership than Miami and it's not even close. In a couple of years, once the next couple of Seattle rail extensions open, it will easily surpass Atlanta as well.
What Seattle is doing is noteworthy, but I go by what exists as opposed to what is planned and, at the moment, the 2 systems, lengthwise, are about even around 24.5 miles -- but Miami wins because HRT beats out LRT in terms of total grade separation, speed and performance. Seattle's under-construction East Bay branch will boost its Sound Link LRT, substantially.
In the 2 city downtown areas, Miami's speedy, totally free, and comprehensive elevated Metro Mover beats out Seattle's cute, touristy but slow-moving streetcar + Seattle's unique, historic 2-station monorail to the Space Needle.
Also, while both cities have commuter rail, Miami's 2-prong Tri-Rail system combined with the speedy, luxury Brightline regional rail to West Palm Beach -- and very soon, 125 miles to Orlando, wins. And both these systems operate out of the still new elevated Central Station, a massive mixed-use ultra-modern complex downtown.
Both cities are good transit-wise. But given these facts, Miami currently has a slight edge in my book.
Why would Miami be above Seattle? Seattle has a rapidly-expanding, mostly grade-separated light metro system including a 10-mile subway tunnel through the city, and a second subway tunnel through the urban core is currently under development. Combine this with one of best bus systems in the country and much higher public transit mode-share and ridership than Miami and it's not even close. In a couple of years, once the next couple of Seattle rail extensions open, it will easily surpass Atlanta as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
What Seattle is doing is noteworthy, but I go by what exists as opposed to what is planned and, at the moment, the 2 systems, lengthwise, are about even around 24.5 miles -- but Miami wins because HRT beats out LRT in terms of total grade separation, speed and performance. Seattle's under-construction East Bay branch will boost its Sound Link LRT, substantially.
In the 2 city downtown areas, Miami's speedy, totally free, and comprehensive elevated Metro Mover beats out Seattle's cute, touristy but slow-moving streetcar + Seattle's unique, historic 2-station monorail to the Space Needle.
Also, while both cities have commuter rail, Miami's 2-prong Tri-Rail system combined with the speedy, luxury Brightline regional rail to West Palm Beach -- and very soon, 125 miles to Orlando, wins. And both these systems operate out of the still new elevated Central Station, a massive mixed-use ultra-modern complex downtown.
Both cities are good transit-wise. But given these facts, Miami currently has a slight edge in my book.
Yea, I think the two are currently pretty comparable. The main agencies of the respective main counties of each, King County Metro and Miami-Dade Transit, have thus far posted figures that are pretty close to each other and only slightly favor King County Metro. There are other transit agencies in each that are also operating, but I don't expect the numbers to be wildly off as one of those main modes, commuter rail, are also outside of those agencies and post similar numbers.
I do think it makes sense to mention two differences that are interesting. One is that for Miami, neither Amtrak services or the Tri-Rail commuter rail system go downtown--that downtown station is a private enterprise, the aforementioned Brightline, and while there was a deal cut for loans, funding, and approval for Brightline to go downtown as it does now, there was supposedly part of an agreement to bring at least Tri-Rail there as well, but that's now extremely delayed. Another is that Amtrak services in Seattle are far more frequent and *do* go downtown and they run pretty speedily so are a fairly good counterpart to Brightline. Pre-pandemic, the Amtrak Cascades service and Brightline had similar ridership numbers.
Yea, I think the two are currently pretty comparable. The main agencies of the respective main counties of each, King County Metro and Miami-Dade Transit, have thus far posted figures that are pretty close to each other and only slightly favor King County Metro. There are other transit agencies in each that are also operating, but I don't expect the numbers to be wildly off as one of those main modes, commuter rail, are also outside of those agencies and post similar numbers.
I do think it makes sense to mention two differences that are interesting. One is that for Miami, neither Amtrak services or the Tri-Rail commuter rail system go downtown--that downtown station is a private enterprise, the aforementioned Brightline, and while there was a deal cut for loans, funding, and approval for Brightline to go downtown as it does now, there was supposedly part of an agreement to bring at least Tri-Rail there as well, but that's now extremely delayed. Another is that Amtrak services in Seattle are far more frequent and *do* go downtown and they run pretty speedily so are a fairly good counterpart to Brightline. Pre-pandemic, the Amtrak Cascades service and Brightline had similar ridership numbers.
I trust that there's good fare coordination between King County Metro and Sound Transit, which runs the light metro.
I trust that there's good fare coordination between King County Metro and Sound Transit, which runs the light metro.
Are we really going to start saying “light metro†just because Seattle wants to separate itself from other light rail? If so, do other cities have a “light metro†or does this only apply to Seattle?
Are we really going to start saying “light metro†just because Seattle wants to separate itself from other light rail? If so, do other cities have a “light metro†or does this only apply to Seattle?
The system opening in Honolulu is considered "Light Metro"
I trust that there's good fare coordination between King County Metro and Sound Transit, which runs the light metro.
I know the different modes can all use the ORCA tap card, but I'm not sure if they do any kind of discounts for transfers or some kind of any mode zoning system. I've used it before, but since I was there for an extended visit, but still just a visit, I didn't really pay much attention to how the fare system works. Having a single card though was handy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy
Are we really going to start saying “light metro†just because Seattle wants to separate itself from other light rail? If so, do other cities have a “light metro†or does this only apply to Seattle?
I've also heard terms like premetro before as well as medium-capacity metro in addition to light metro. I do think it makes sense to have some way of distinguishing among the different rail modes, but it's also true that it all sort of runs along a large gamut with different factors like peak frequencies, off-peak frequencies, trainset capacities, fare systems, grade separation, shared lanes versus dedicated lanes, and whether they stop at traffic signals (and even then, whether or not they have signal priority). I think the light metro or premetro generally indicates mostly or total grade separation with no shared lanes and limited to no traffic intersections which I think is sort of a useful distinction with other light rail, but still has the shared qualities of frequent off-peak service and smaller trainset capacities. I remember being weirded out that Taipei's Wenhu line was also referred to as light rail when what I thought was light rail was more akin to some of LA's lines which ran far less rapidly and was more prone to stops, so there is some merit in making a distinction. Again though, there's a lot of variation in the different factors and so the terms are pretty rough approximations. For example, the Brown Line that's part of Chicago's L rapid transit system that's supposed to be heavy rail actually has its northern end at street level and even has a gated traffic crossings at major streets that it needs to go through--it's a bit of, "yo, what are you doing Brown Line, you're supposed to be rapid transit!".
I am a bit worried about the Regional Connector in LA opening up and there being massive delays propagating through the system because of some of the street crossings as mentioned here.
I know the different modes can all use the ORCA tap card, but I'm not sure if they do any kind of discounts for transfers or some kind of any mode zoning system. I've used it before, but since I was there for an extended visit, but still just a visit, I didn't really pay much attention to how the fare system works. Having a single card though was handy.
I've also heard terms like premetro before as well as medium-capacity metro in addition to light metro. I do think it makes sense to have some way of distinguishing among the different rail modes, but it's also true that it all sort of runs along a large gamut with different factors like peak frequencies, off-peak frequencies, trainset capacities, fare systems, grade separation, shared lanes v sitersus dedicated lanes, and whether they stop at traffic signals (and even then, whether or not they have signal priority). I think the light metro or premetro generally indicates mostly or total grade separation with no shared lanes and limited to no traffic intersections which I think is sort of a useful distinction with other light rail, but still has the shared qualities of frequent off-peak service and smaller trainset capacities. I remember being weirded out that Taipei's Wenhu line was also referred to as light rail when what I thought was light rail was more akin to some of LA's lines which ran far less rapidly and was more prone to stops, so there is some merit in making a distinction. Again though, there's a lot of variation in the different factors and so the terms are pretty rough approximations. For example, the Brown Line that's part of Chicago's L rapid transit system that's supposed to be heavy rail actually has its northern end at street level and even has a gated traffic crossings at major streets that it needs to go through--it's a bit of, "yo, what are you doing Brown Line, you're supposed to be rapid transit!".
I am a bit worried about the Regional Connector in LA opening up and there being massive delays propagating through the system because of some of the street crossings as mentioned here.
The proposed third solution for untangling the stretch from the subway portal to the Washington Boulevard wye reminds me of Wilson Avenue station on the BMT Canarsie Line (L train) in New York.
The tracks at the station are shoehorned in between a cemetery and the LIRR, and as a result, one track surfaces to an above-ground platform that sits atop the track in the other direction, which according to the article appears to remain in the tunnel but actually is at ground level (presumably it forms an embankment atop which the other platform sits).
Frankly, given that the Regional Connector is also a subway, I don't see why LA Metro doesn't
just bury everything from the current subway portal to the wye, including at least half the wye, but I guess that would cost a lot more.
The proposed third solution for untangling the stretch from the subway portal to the Washington Boulevard wye reminds me of Wilson Avenue station on the BMT Canarsie Line (L train) in New York.
The tracks at the station are shoehorned in between a cemetery and the LIRR, and as a result, one track surfaces to an above-ground platform that sits atop the track in the other direction, which according to the article appears to remain in the tunnel but actually is at ground level (presumably it forms an embankment atop which the other platform sits).
Frankly, given that the Regional Connector is also a subway, I don't see why LA Metro doesn't
just bury everything from the current subway portal to the wye, including at least half the wye, but I guess that would cost a lot more.
That is roughly one of the proposals. I just wish it was done as part of the package for the Regional Connector. I do think that, though not on a scale relative to its metropolitan area and the population therein, LA is fairly well-positioned to be a top city for transportation as something that's not only high in absolute ridership numbers, but a large contiguous area and total population where mass transit is a good option rather than a last resort option. I think that comes with some growing pains though of figuring out how to make that as functional as possible.
Thanks for the article. That helps, but not much. I can't fathom why the authors of the article consider Seattle to run a "light metro" but not the Los Angeles C line, which is high platform and has no grade crossings. It even lists people movers as light metro, which are very far from being anything close to a metro in terms of capacity. I think that it's trying to make distinctions when there's actually a lot of overlap and shades of grey. They even say that they're using the term for systems that self-refer to themselves in that way, yet almost none of them actually do even using their examples.
I am a bit worried about the Regional Connector in LA opening up and there being massive delays propagating through the system because of some of the street crossings as mentioned here.
Yeah, metro is very worried that service will be inconsistent, subject to delays, and have limited ability to alleviate even minor delays that will undoubtedly happen. Everything will compound because of constraints through the Washington junction. It's very likely going to be unreliable.
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