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I’ve only been to Milwaukee once, on a brief visit in the 90s, but it seems quite underrated. From doing a little bit of research and google-mapping, it appears to have a much healthier urban core than Cleveland. It’s got a beautiful riverfront (something Cleveland doesn’t have an answer for) and, by appearance at least, much more attractive looking inner-city neighborhoods in every direction from downtown. The Prospect Avenue stretch towards Northpoint looks like a page out of Chicago — very reminiscent of the highrise corridors in Lake View and Edgewater.
Statistics support what is visible to the naked eye:
Population in the inner 50 sq miles (2010 Census):
Milwaukee— 417,000
Cleveland— 255,000
Population density within 5 miles of downtown:
Milwaukee— 8353 ppsm
Cleveland — 5079 ppsm
Population living in neighborhoods with walkscore of 80 or above:
Milwaukee— 89k
Cleveland — 9k
I think these numbers speak for themselves.
Well as for walkscore, that is patently absurd. You should probably question the results when you see two similar cities with such different results. I only need to point you to the population of downtown Cleveland, which is I believe around 20k. Already more than your 9k figure. These areas are labeled "walkers paradise" on walk score. Also, for some reason, Ohio City (10k people) in Cleveland, is only listed as a 79 walk score, which is 1 point below your arbitrary line. Not sure why it would be only a 79 though, it's incredibly walkable. Shaker Square (probably another 10k) is the densest neighborhood at 88. The 9k is way off just based on those few instances.
Any links to the other stats? Also don't seem correct, but I just wanna see for myself. Although maybe, if you go east from downtown Cleveland, you do hit some pretty abandoned areas that would negatively effect the results there.
It is simply flat out wrong to claim Cleveland is "declining in every metric" and then disingenuous to downplay the one major metric Cleveland is excelling and growing in: healthcare. It's simplistic to exclaim that healthcare is aimed solely at having healthy citizens. How about a healthy local economy capable of attracting many spin-off industries, which both Cleveland Clinic and UH are doing? And having a internationally-recognized, world-class health care and medical research giant like Cleveland Clinic has to count for something.
You also fail to note that Cleveland's steep population losses have slowed sharply in the last 10 years pointing, perhaps, to even the City possibly gaining population after 2020... who knows? And you cannot overlook the sharp growth in downtown and 4 or 5 key growth neighborhoods spawning high-density apartment, condo and/or townhouse development in each. In that sense, the City his 'hot' compared to Milwaukee and most other so-called 'rust belt' cities. Obviously folks like me and others have exhaustively chronicled the several maladies Cleveland has suffered that knocked it from its perch of a top American metropolis (something Milwaukee has never approached ... unless you consider being the TV locale for "Happy Days" and "Laverne & Shirley" [both of which were fictional and set 2 decades in the past at the time of airing] as indicators of 'top' status) in the late Twentieth Century. But it has undeniably been turning it around and even its growing reputation as a downtown residential/culinary and entertainment center can't be denied, either.
You also ignore the fact that, given Cleveland's many advantages, such as quality public transit, quality and diverse (and low-cost) housing and high culture/the arts/culinary is, in fact, attracting many large-scale national events over other cities such as political conventions (Cleveland was on the shortlist for the DNC as well until the RNC beat them to the punch in 2016); the MLB All Star game this year, the NFL Draft in 2021 and the NBA All Star game in 2022 -- not to mention other smaller but national events like the International Gay Games in 2014. Cleveland was on Amazon's list for HQ because of quality transit and local officials slated it to be located behind Tower City.
Milwaukee's a nice city of similar in-city size and less blight, a nice close in neighborhood (Lower East Side) and a better, more accessible lake shore, to be sure. But it simply can't match Cleveland/greater Cleveland in the areas cited above. And having to play off of being close to Chicago as its big advantage as you and others cite, says more negative about Milwaukee than it does, positive. Cleveland is close to Pittsburgh, Detroit and even Columbus -- 2 to 2.5 hours to each. That's nice to have, but it doesn't make Cleveland, just like Denver's being stuck out in the middle of nowhere in the Rockies doesn't detract from its quality of a major city. Milwaukee is oft overlooked/overshadowed by Chicago. It simply is not as relevant on the national or international scale as Cleveland regardless of its niceness. Talk to me about, say, St. Louis, which is much more Cleveland-like, but Milwaukee? No...
Milwaukee and Chicago suburbs touch, so the two cities are, in essence, joined. Milwaukee residents and Chicago residents, frequently, go back and forth. I know, I lived in each city. Also, the Amtrak train between the two cities, will be adding three more daily routes, in the next few years. Also, it's the 6th busiest Amtrak route in the nation. So, apparently, people do go back and forth. Chicago's proximity to Milwaukee is lends much more to Milwaukee, than Cincinnati lends to Cleveland.
Milwaukee and Chicago suburbs touch, so the two cities are, in essence, joined. Milwaukee residents and Chicago residents, frequently, go back and forth. I know, I lived in each city. Also, the Amtrak train between the two cities, will be adding three more daily routes, in the next few years. Also, it's the 6th busiest Amtrak route in the nation. So, apparently, people do go back and forth. Chicago's proximity to Milwaukee is lends much more to Milwaukee, than Cincinnati lends to Cleveland.
The point is still a bad one. A reason to like Milwaukee being that it's easy to leave Milwaukee for somewhere else and a lot of people do just that isn't all that convincing.
The point is still a bad one. A reason to like Milwaukee being that it's easy to leave Milwaukee for somewhere else and a lot of people do just that isn't all that convincing.
You're purposely not understanding my point. People don't have to leave Milwaukee for somewhere else, the the many, many people from Chicago, who come to Milwaukee on the week-ends, don't have to have to leave, either. Both cities enjoy what the other cities have to offer...plain and simple. You can keep pushing back, but people in Milwaukee and Chicago, both enjoy what the other city has to offer. Milwaukee has a MULTITUDE of things to do...not lacking in that department, at all.
To me, this is becoming a "Milwaukee is good, Cleveland is trash" post. But, it seems like it's always been that way when it comes to Cleveland against other cities tho, it's like a knee-jerk reaction to throw shade at Cleveland. If it ain't people from the Coasts, it's people from the South. If it ain't people on the South, it's people in other Midwest cities doing it just to big up their city or the cities that they like. If it's not folks from other cities, it's the media. It's like folks feel to get an easy win for their cities pit them against Cleveland.
Last edited by QCongress83216; 07-18-2019 at 02:51 PM..
Well as for walkscore, that is patently absurd. You should probably question the results when you see two similar cities with such different results. I only need to point you to the population of downtown Cleveland, which is I believe around 20k. Already more than your 9k figure. These areas are labeled "walkers paradise" on walk score. Also, for some reason, Ohio City (10k people) in Cleveland, is only listed as a 79 walk score, which is 1 point below your arbitrary line. Not sure why it would be only a 79 though, it's incredibly walkable. Shaker Square (probably another 10k) is the densest neighborhood at 88. The 9k is way off just based on those few instances.
Any links to the other stats? Also don't seem correct, but I just wanna see for myself. Although maybe, if you go east from downtown Cleveland, you do hit some pretty abandoned areas that would negatively effect the results there.
Here is the database that gives you 2010 census population figures within a given radius of a specified zip code.
As for walkscore, you can use whatever cut-off you want but obviously the lower you go the more meaningless it becomes. I am not endorsing walkscore, but they do have some kind of a consistent methodology so it is a valuable data point. If you just look up a specific address you will get a a more granular score than what is cited for the surrounding neighborhood as a whole — but there is no way to make city-wise comparisons that way. Also, given that Milwaukee has much more robust population figures in the inner city I would not assume that the walkscore stats are wildly off base.
Milwaukee and Chicago suburbs touch, so the two cities are, in essence, joined. Milwaukee residents and Chicago residents, frequently, go back and forth. I know, I lived in each city. Also, the Amtrak train between the two cities, will be adding three more daily routes, in the next few years. Also, it's the 6th busiest Amtrak route in the nation. So, apparently, people do go back and forth. Chicago's proximity to Milwaukee is lends much more to Milwaukee, than Cincinnati lends to Cleveland.
Also if you look up the CAPS database, you will see that the gap increases the closer you get to downtown.
Within 3 miles of downtown (zip codes 53202 for Milwaukee and 44114 for Cleveland) the population density is 9400 ppsm for Milwaukee and 3900 ppsm for Cleveland. A truly astounding difference.
You're purposely not understanding my point. People don't have to leave Milwaukee for somewhere else, the the many, many people from Chicago, who come to Milwaukee on the week-ends, don't have to have to leave, either. Both cities enjoy what the other cities have to offer...plain and simple. You can keep pushing back, but people in Milwaukee and Chicago, both enjoy what the other city has to offer. Milwaukee has a MULTITUDE of things to do...not lacking in that department, at all.
I know what you're saying. I'm just saying it's not a good point. my opinion.
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