Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is the answer if you want to go with the origins of Rock and Roll. When I think of the early days of the genre it all comes back to Sun Studios/Records in Memphis.
Personally I think Los Angeles is where the museum should be. The Sunset Strip and the Capitol Records building screams Rock and Roll to me. Times may be a changing, but all roads to stardom (especially in this genre) went through LA.
As for the museum it’s always been a bit of a joke to me. Kinda like a glorified Hard Rock Cafe. This years inductees includes Nine Inch Nails, really? I guess they’ll let anyone in. Depeche Mode? Maybe it should be called the popular music hall of fame? The same goes for Biggie Smalls and Whitney Houston, nothing Rock and Roll about them. I’ll give T. Rex some props for some good rock songs, but that’s like letting a career .200 hitter into the HOF who had a couple of good seasons. Seriously, just change the name to the popular music museum already. Drop the Rock and Roll and Hall of Fame from the name.
IMO, I think it would just be another thing in L.A. Also, Capitol just didn't break rock n' roll acts, they also broke acts of other genres as well. Yes, roads to stardom lead to L.A. but not every rock n' roll act get their start or their breaks in L.A. for whatever reason. They had to go to different cities like Cleveland in order to be heard.
Cleveland appears to be unique (and if not totally unique, then certainly the first) among cities that popularized a particular genre of music in that it was able to do so solely on the basis of technology--specifically media and telecommunications--without being a cultural hub or recording hub of the genre itself. Its role was rather narrow and one-dimensional in this regard, but obviously very effective and largely attributable to one person.
What was unique and essential in Cleveland is that the major radio stations engaged in "rock" wars even while "race" music largely was suppressed in many other cities, including Memphis. This wasn't "narrow and one-dimensional," but essential to the establishment of rock as a popular music genre.
And it was not one person who launched rock 'n roll in Cleveland. Leo Mintz arguably was more important, and over a few years recruited the talented Alan Freed to the cause, and financially backed his pioneering radio show in 1951.
Bill Randle was Freed's rival, and arguably just as important in the history of rock 'n roll, especially as he acted independently of a financial backer and mentor like Mintz.
Jane Scott laid claim to being the world's first rock critic.
<<At the time, The Plain Dealer was the only major American newspaper to have a full-time music critic on staff, thus Scott is considered to be the world's first rock critic.>>
With other genres, either people took it with them when they moved from the rural South to the urban South to the much more urban North and those genres became a significant part of the city's cultural narrative where the capital and infrastructure existed to record, distribute, and broadcast the music; or it was a major urban center where the genre came into being and eventually came of age and there's no dispute concerning its birthplace or home.
Cleveland's role in the history of R&R is essentially independent of the Great Migration; that's not true of the Northern hubs/centers of other genres born in the South. It was just interesting to note that.
<<Cleveland, which had a black presence from its earliest history, had a relatively small black population of approx. 10,000 immediately before the war. By 1920 the figure had grown to 34,451, and 20 years later stood at over 85,000.>>
Cleveland's African American population significantly impacted Cleveland culture, especially in Uptown, Cleveland's second downtown and entertainment center.
Cleveland's familiarity and enjoyment of African American performers made it very receptive to rock 'n roll. And many of the earliest rock fans in Cleveland were young African Americans.
<<Williams’ eyewitness writeup includes her colorful descriptions of the youthful crowd, “most of them teensters.” Though Alan Freed is rightfully heralded for bringing black rhythm-and-blues to an integrated audience on Cleveland’s airwaves and elsewhere, the crowd at the Moondog Coronation Ball in Cleveland's Arena was notably different. Wiliams chronicled for posterity the racial makeup of the dance’s attendees: “less than one per cent of them were white.”[12]>>
IMO, I think it would just be another thing in L.A. Also, Capitol just didn't break rock n' roll acts, they also broke acts of other genres as well. Yes, roads to stardom lead to L.A. but not every rock n' roll act get their start or their breaks in L.A. for whatever reason. They had to go to different cities like Cleveland in order to be heard.
True, not every band gets their start or big break there, but you can’t deny the sheer number of musicians that are originally from or moved to LA, formed bands, made great music, and found stardom.
I’m aware Capitol Records produced bands from all genres, but I was taking about their iconic building and it’s location at Hollywood and Vine, along with the Sunset Strip another street over. Anyone that’s been in that area can feel music history in the air. As for the location you’re right it would just be another thing in LA, but I’d be willing to bet it would receive more visitors a year than it’s current location? Especially if it was in Hollywood.
Honestly good for Cleveland though. It seems like it’s citizens are very proud of the museum and Cleveland’s place in rock and Roll history. I still think Memphis would be a better choice if we’re going off early history, but I’ll give Cleveland it’s just due in this department.
Is it me or is this debate turning into a hate over the fact that Cleveland got the R&RHOF and their cities didn't get it? I think it's starting to feel like the latter is becoming more commonplace in this forum. It's like people on and off this board (I've read this on other sites and heard some people) feel that Cleveland is undeserving of the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame, and it should be moved to a more desirable or tourist friendly location. Some people also have this mentality that your city or region should've gotten it just because of your city/region's name recognition. Your city leaders at that time didn't put together a viable plan that could outmatch Cleveland or they didn't put a viable plan together at all. Plus, as you all (may or may not) know that Cleveland won the national poll by a wide margin back then.
Let's admit that cities like Cleveland and Memphis played a big part in rock n' roll but in different ways. Memphis helped innovated it while Cleveland pushed it on a mainstream level, and also help launch a lot of great rock artists that we know and love today.
Is it me or is this debate turning into a hate over the fact that Cleveland got the R&RHOF and their cities didn't get it? I think it's starting to feel like the latter is becoming more commonplace in this forum. It's like people on and off this board (I've read this on other sites and heard some people) feel that Cleveland is undeserving of the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame, and it should be moved to a more desirable or tourist friendly location. Some people also have this mentality that your city or region should've gotten it just because of your city/region's name recognition. Your city leaders at that time didn't put together a viable plan that could outmatch Cleveland or they didn't put a viable plan together at all. Plus, as you all (may or may not) know that Cleveland won the national poll by a wide margin back then.
Let's admit that cities like Cleveland and Memphis played a big part in rock n' roll but in different ways. Memphis helped innovated it while Cleveland pushed it on a mainstream level, and also help launch a lot of great rock artists that we know and love today.
I disagree. Most of the posters, including myself, have no dog in the fight. I am not from Memphis, but I can recognize its place in music history and innovation.
I disagree. Most of the posters, including myself, have no dog in the fight. I am not from Memphis, but I can recognize its place in music history and innovation.
I have seen this debate in the media and on other sites for years, that's where I'm coming from. But, it seems like while praising Memphis you're diminishing Cleveland's contribution to the genre. Also, I feel that some posters are showing bias towards their cities or regions.
I have seen this debate in the media and on other sites for years, that's where I'm coming from. But, it seems like while praising Memphis you're diminishing Cleveland's contribution to the genre. Also, I feel that some posters are showing bias towards their cities or regions.
I’d be shocked if this thread was full of Memphians.
I’d be shocked if this thread was full of Memphians.
I was referring to a certain group from a certain city or region. I was talking about the ones who harbor biases towards their cities or regions and diminishing Cleveland as not being worthy of having the Hall of Fame. And, I don't hate Memphis at all, I got family in Memphis and I enjoy visiting. All I'm trying to say is that you can mention one city's contributions in something without diminishing or dismissing another city's contributions in the same thing.
What was unique and essential in Cleveland is that the major radio stations engaged in "rock" wars even while "race" music largely was suppressed in many other cities, including Memphis. This wasn't "narrow and one-dimensional," but essential to the establishment of rock as a popular music genre.
That still fits with the broadcasting/promotional element. Cleveland itself didn't produce an outsized number of rock acts nor was it a recording hub; most other cities that play a significant role in the evolution/development of genres of music usually have one or both of those advantages as well.
Quote:
And it was not one person who launched rock 'n roll in Cleveland. Leo Mintz arguably was more important, and over a few years recruited the talented Alan Freed to the cause, and financially backed his pioneering radio show in 1951.
Bill Randle was Freed's rival, and arguably just as important in the history of rock 'n roll, especially as he acted independently of a financial backer and mentor like Mintz.
Jane Scott laid claim to being the world's first rock critic.
<<At the time, The Plain Dealer was the only major American newspaper to have a full-time music critic on staff, thus Scott is considered to be the world's first rock critic.>>
I stand corrected on that point and thought it to be a bit unusual that Freed was depicted as nearly being solely responsive for the massive promotion and broadcasting of R&R. Those are the types of things that usually occur within a system or ecosystem and I see Cleveland was no exception.
Quote:
<<Cleveland, which had a black presence from its earliest history, had a relatively small black population of approx. 10,000 immediately before the war. By 1920 the figure had grown to 34,451, and 20 years later stood at over 85,000.>>
Cleveland's African American population significantly impacted Cleveland culture, especially in Uptown, Cleveland's second downtown and entertainment center.
Cleveland's familiarity and enjoyment of African American performers made it very receptive to rock 'n roll. And many of the earliest rock fans in Cleveland were young African Americans.
<<Williams’ eyewitness writeup includes her colorful descriptions of the youthful crowd, “most of them teensters.” Though Alan Freed is rightfully heralded for bringing black rhythm-and-blues to an integrated audience on Cleveland’s airwaves and elsewhere, the crowd at the Moondog Coronation Ball in Cleveland's Arena was notably different. Wiliams chronicled for posterity the racial makeup of the dance’s attendees: “less than one per cent of them were white.”[12]>>
Obviously the Great Migration brought a huge influx of Black folks into Cleveland and it stands to reason they were going to be quite familiar with R&B music performed by Black artists. What I meant by my statement was that Cleveland's status as big promoter of the genre wasn't primarily based on a big, local rock musical culture that produced a lot of local talent whose material was broadcast to the masses, but it was musical artists from all over whose records were being played in Cleveland. Contrast that with, say, Chicago and Detroit whose status as hubs of blues, soul, etc was primarily due to the Black populations from the Mississippi Delta region--Ground Zero for such music--that migrated to those cities in large numbers during the Great Migration and continued cultivating and developing, as well as recording, them there. Now I'm not saying that Cleveland didn't have a local Black R&B/R&R scene at all because that wouldn't be true; but what I'm saying is that the local scene didn't have nearly as much of a direct impact on Cleveland's evolution into a hub for the genre as the the local Black musical scenes in Detroit and Chicago had on the evolution of those cities as hubs of blues, soul, etc.
Let's admit that cities like Cleveland and Memphis played a big part in rock n' roll but in different ways. Memphis helped innovated it while Cleveland pushed it on a mainstream level, and also help launch a lot of great rock artists that we know and love today.
I agree with this and I'm definitely not hating on Cleveland. But I'm actually going to change my original answer of Memphis and give it back to Cleveland based on its role in popularizing the genre; that pretty much goes hand-in-hand with making certain artists famous, hence it being called the Hall of Fame. However, I think Memphis is worthy of a venue with just as much acclaim and visibility as the HOF based on its early role in the development and establishment of R&R and producing the records of its earliest artists. I know that usually all of this goes into a HOF venue but Memphis should have something at least equal in stature with more emphasis on the genre's origins. Maybe combining Sun Studio and the Rock 'n Soul museum into a new high-caliber, top-notch venue would do the trick.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What was unique and essential in Cleveland is that the major radio stations engaged in "rock" wars even while "race" music largely was suppressed in many other cities, including Memphis. This wasn't "narrow and one-dimensional," but essential to the establishment of rock as a popular music genre.