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For five years or so when we first moved to Las Vegas we kept our boat in Long Beach. And we would spend most holiday weekends in Catalina. We would make it to Long Beach in under 4 hours quite consistently. We simply traveled the day before the holiday and the day after. In general it can be a mess coming out of LA on Friday afternoon and in to LA on Sunday afternoon.
We had a friend who runs a business in both OC and Las Vegas. He would do a couple of days in LV every week. He would consistently make it in under 3 hours by driving it in the wee hours of the morning. Never got a ticket though he did total a very nice 80 grand auto. Got hit by a tire from an 18 wheeler. Ended up rolling over a couple of times but got nothing other than a couple of minor bruises.
That sounds hella relaxing...that's the type of the stuff that pulls me west...i dont even need that much connectivity but that great to hear.
New England was hyper interconnected but I don't know that it increased my QOL. Id routinely works with people in Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Connecticut. Id have work out there, people would intern between the states at my college.
One uncle lives in Southern New Hampshire, my dads in Boston, mom in Providence, brother went to college in Maine and lives in NY, I went to college in Connecticut...
there are 4 states in Bostons CSA and I could care less for it. The fact that there's not constant sprawl from LA to LV is somewhat refreshing...mentally
That sounds hella relaxing...that's the type of the stuff that pulls me west...i dont even need that much connectivity but that great to hear.
New England was hyper interconnected but I don't know that it increased my QOL. Id routinely works with people in Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Connecticut. Id have work out there, people would intern between the states at my college.
One uncle lives in Southern New Hampshire, my dads in Boston, mom in Providence, brother went to college in Maine and lives in NY, I went to college in Connecticut...
there are 4 states in Bostons CSA and I could care less for it. The fact that there's not constant sprawl from LA to LV is somewhat refreshing...mentally
We have made the run a few hundred times. Had long trips no more than 4 or 5 times. And I would note that a couple of those were simply LA going into lock down mode. It can take 3 or 4 hours to get from the far east of LA to OC or Long Beach.
Weve decided to pass on Phoenix. We’re definitely still undecided we haven’t started a job search due to COVID and our lease not being up until next May...
We’ve basically eliminated Phoenix because it too vast and doesn’t seem to have quite enough Black culture to make us feel comfortable coming from the urban northeast. I also don’t like that there’s a viable red streak.
We’ve replaced it with Sacramento. There’s a reason I haven’t been back to this thread-honestly we’re back to the drawing board.
-Sacramento seems nice and like a more complete city than Vegas but a bit sleepy if anything. I like the indie movie theaters , sense of place, climate and diversity. That being said Vegas is cheaper and I have many long time friend in LA, including one whom I consider a brother and is close with both my wife and I. Proximity to LA for day trips is far preferable to SF for me.
-Las Vegas sounds ultra suburban but in a modern, dense ways I sort of like it. Diversity is good and the home prices are 10-15% cheaper than San Francisco. I love the desert surroundings. I do worry about it’s economy though, seems way too volatile and they have figured out how to diversify yet. Maybe its just impractical for an aspiring urban planner and educational consultant.
-family want m back in Boston/Providence. They want to be involved in my sons life and I like that. I’d move back in a heartbeat if it weren’t for cost. My fathers retiring and wants to travel/sell his home. Both he and my mother have offered to have us come up there for a while until we get settled. I don’t want to live with family even temporarily . And it’ll be a slog to secure housing and the wife wants something fairly nice not a rickety triple decker. That being said she prefers Boston over Providence-which is much cheaper so I don’t know what to do. As young new parents family help would be great and me being familiar with the area would make it a bit easier to raise my child..I think.
-Baltimore is nice but we do worry about raising our son here. It’s either bland suburban with none of the things I like about Vegas or Sacramento or living in a nice rowhome in a better part of the city near downtown. The latter is a viable option but it depend on who am wins this next Baltimore mayoral election. Right now it look like hey might re elect a convicted mayor. If I can’t have any confidence the city is going to improve-it’s not fair to my son to raise him here.
Got it - appreciate the update. Definitely sounds like you have a ton of different variables to consider in your decision.
Strictly in terms of Sacramento vs. Vegas - theres no doubt that Sacramento is sleepier compared to Vegas in terms of nightlife and partying, but virtually every city in the country is. Sacramento is better than you’d expect in terms of nightlife, though, and is up and coming. You’ve also got Oakland/SF 90 minutes away, and Reno and South Lake Tahoe (a less trashy version of Reno) in Nevada with casinos and 24/7 drinking less than 2 hours away. South Lake Tahoe is poppin during the winter in terms of partying.
LA is a very consistent 5-6 hour drive, as opposed to a wildly unpredictable 3-8 hour drive from Las Vegas. Las Vegas and Portland are both a 9-hour drive so both are on the fringes of doable for a 3-4 night trip if you don’t want to fly. Honestly, Seattle is the only West Coast city which is in the double digits in terms of hours driving from Sacramento.
Got it - appreciate the update. Definitely sounds like you have a ton of different variables to consider in your decision.
Strictly in terms of Sacramento vs. Vegas - theres no doubt that Sacramento is sleepier compared to Vegas in terms of nightlife and partying, but virtually every city in the country is. Sacramento is better than you’d expect in terms of nightlife, though, and is up and coming. You’ve also got Oakland/SF 90 minutes away, and Reno and South Lake Tahoe (a less trashy version of Reno) in Nevada with casinos and 24/7 drinking less than 2 hours away. South Lake Tahoe is poppin during the winter in terms of partying.
LA is a very consistent 5-6 hour drive, as opposed to a wildly unpredictable 3-8 hour drive from Las Vegas. Las Vegas and Portland are both a 9-hour drive so both are on the fringes of doable for a 3-4 night trip if you don’t want to fly. Honestly, Seattle is the only West Coast city which is in the double digits in terms of hours driving from Sacramento.
The drive from Las Vegas to LA is very predictable. It breaks once in a long while but is likely as predicable or more so than the longer drive from Sacramento.
In our experience over many years the LV - LA breaks a few percent of the time. We would expect more on the longer Sacramento ride. And as I pointed out about half of the delays were driven by problems getting across LA not the drive to it.
LA is a very consistent 5-6 hour drive, as opposed to a wildly unpredictable 3-8 hour drive from Las Vegas.
Wow, quite an exaggeration here. Each time I drive to LA from Vegas it’s been less than 4 hours and the drive is very predictable and easy. OP, yes most people do a gas stop in Barstow as it is the halfway point between the two.
Wow, quite an exaggeration here. Each time I drive to LA from Vegas it’s been less than 4 hours and the drive is very predictable and easy. OP, yes most people do a gas stop in Barstow as it is the halfway point between the two.
I guess one thing I didn’t consider is that going from Vegas to LA for a weekend is basically the reverse commute. While the masses who live in LA are driving to Vegas on Friday, you’re going the other, much less congested direction if you’re going to LA from Vegas. And vice versa on Sunday coming back (or Monday if it’s a holiday weekend).
I drove from Santa Monica to Vegas on a Friday evening about 12 years ago and it took nearly 8 hours. The way back was less but still much longer than 4 hours. So that’s what I was basing that on. But, again, I realize the reverse trip going from Vegas to LA is probably much less congested and more consistent.
Las Vegas to Los Angeles is roughly 3-4 hour hours with no traffic (roughly the time it can take from Boston to NYC).You should be able to make that during the night, but keep in mind once you leave Victorville, there's really nothing between there and Barstow. Then there's the hamlet of Baker, and then there's Vegas. Driving in the barren desert definitely has its challenges compared to driving in the East where there's typically a town every 15-30 miles. If you see a sign saying "next services 100 miles" take heed. Being stuck in the desert is no fun at all. Driving between the two cities during Thanksgiving weekend between the two is its own special version of hell. I remember it taking at least 7-9 hours back in 1993 coming back down to Southern California back Sunday after Thanksgiving with half of us ill with stomach flu.
This will give you a good idea of what the drive is like:
Also, I know you said you prefer Los Angeles over San Francisco. Sacramento is about 90 minutes from San Francisco in no traffic, and San Francisco is about as dense as an Eastern City and has that feel with a California twist. It may be less of an adjustment for you if that's important to you. You'd also be pretty close to Oakland as well (about an hour and twenty minutes), which is the center of Black culture in Northern California, although a lot of Black Oaklanders have relocated to Sacramento.
Just for kicks, here's the drive from Sacramento to Los Angeles. You'd mostly drive through the Central Valley, and the Grapevine/Tejon Pass right before you get into Santa Clarita and the San Fernando Valley:
Los Angeles is a lot denser than people think - but its one huge behemoth of a city that was a collection of towns that grew into each other over the past 100 years. It's not as dense as your average Eastern city, but more dense than the sunbelt darlings of DFW, Houston, Atlanta, etc. Also, although Las Vegas has its own identity, it's extremely tied to Southern California. Even moreso than say, Providence or Worcester are tied to Boston. The vast majority of people who have relocated there are from Los Angeles or San Diego, and the attitudes and outlook are somewhat similar. Considering the city has only grown for the past 20-30 years, Vegas seems like its still trying to find its own identity outside of the party atmosphere of the Strip.
What was kind of surprising to me is how fast he got from McCarran Airport to the middle of nowhere. It took the drive like 8 minutes to do that. That’s unsettling but I assume McCarran is on some fringe of the metro. Otherwise Vegas seems tiny. I love the desert scenery. Give me that all day, more so than the dry brush we saw by Ontario CA.
What was kind of surprising to me is how fast he got from McCarran Airport to the middle of nowhere. It took the drive like 8 minutes to do that. That’s unsettling but I assume McCarran is on some fringe of the metro. Otherwise Vegas seems tiny. I love the desert scenery. Give me that all day, more so than the dry brush we saw by Ontario CA.
Driver in that video was in LA inside of 4 hours.
Most of Vegas' development goes Northwest, North, East, and Southeast of the airport. Now that you mention it, I have no idea why the Southwest part of the LV Valley is so undeveloped compared to the rest.
What was kind of surprising to me is how fast he got from McCarran Airport to the middle of nowhere. It took the drive like 8 minutes to do that. That’s unsettling but I assume McCarran is on some fringe of the metro. Otherwise Vegas seems tiny. I love the desert scenery. Give me that all day, more so than the dry brush we saw by Ontario CA.
Driver in that video was in LA inside of 4 hours.
McCarran Airport is on the southern end of the metro...so you don't get to see much of the city if you immediately head south...and for what ever reason, they don't really build a lot of stuff alongside the freeways in Nevada outside the older parts of Vegas or Reno. Also, cities begin and end a bit more abruptly based on how far water lines go out west. Very different from other parts of the country where you can throw a house on top of a septic tank anywhere.
Vegas metro has about 2.2 Million people, so while its not a megacity, it's not tiny either, pretty midsized. The Las Vegas Valley, in which much of the metro area is is roughly 600 square miles, so about the size of Houston's city limits.
Here are a few vids of people driving around freeways in Vegas:
Here are a few of people driving around the streets of Vegas, giving you a general idea of the streetscapes around there. Once you get away from the Strip, it's very suburban, mid-density sprawl with lots of strip malls at major intersections. You've been warned, LOL:
I have relatives who live in Vegas, most of them moved there from Virginia, some seem to like it, some don't. I liked it okay when I visited beyond the Strip, but I personally preferred living in Los Angeles since it offers more for me in terms of city life.
Not sure if you and your wife are still undecided but here's my feedback.
COL: Tie
Culture (local traditions/museums/etc.): Not a huge fan of bright neon lights, casinos, buffets and faux nightlife pushed by domestic tourism, so in this regard I'm going with Phoenix.
Arts: Phoenix
Climate: Tie. I prefer Phoenix's monsoon season to Vegas, but I envy their snowfall in the winter and frequently less relentlessly hot and sticky days they seem to have. Then again it is a 2,000 ft sea level compared to Phx at 1000'.
Politics: Las Vegas is in a more liberal leaning NV that is is more to the left than AZ which I feel is purple.
Housing Quality: Phoenix hands down.
K-12 Schools: Phoenix
Natural Scenery: Phoenix
Dining: Vegas has 5 star restaurants, but the local flavor and growing cocktail and high class cuisine options are far surpassing what Vegas outputs these days from its 5-star Hotel dining scene.
Entertainment/Nightlife: Vegas all the way here. Phoenix will seem sleepy compared to the strip, but Downtown is consistently becoming an actual "authentic" neighborhood, with grocery, cleaners, bars, hotels, residential and LRT. Vegas has no answer for this if considering an urban area with entertainment.
Outdoor Activities: Phoenix has better in-town hikes, that don't require a 45 min drive away from the city, (i.e. North Mountain, Piestewa Peak, Camelback Mountain...etc)
Diversity: Vegas is more diverse.
Integration: Vegas
Job Market(urban planning/non-profits/education technology): Phoenix is leading the nation in job growth in many polls, and has a growing tech and medical presence. Zoom has an office relocating here with 500 Engineering positions relocating to the area at the end of Q4. Las Vegas is having a rougher time than Phoenix due to the shut down of the hospitality and tourism sectors due to COVID-19. I would be really weary of moving there just based on that.
Safety: Phoenix has a gang presence in certain areas as does Vegas, but it is a larger metro area and has relatively low crime metro wide. LV has only just recently gotten better, but overall Phx feels a bit deal safer and less shady at night than Vegas.
I would visit Phoenix before you rule it out of your decision. A lot of people from MA have moved to AZ, in fact one of my college mates moved to Phoenix after school and is still living there from my knowledge. His uncle is Louis Farrakhan, who he told me lived in the same house in Phoenix for years. Lots of unknown history here, and some aspects of culture that many would dismiss if they don't their research.
if family is important - Tempe, Chandler Ahwatukee area of Phoenix or Goodyear on the west side.
if you want a black presence and don't mind trash schools or private route - South Phoenix.
Good luck on your decision
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