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and if we're truthful, a good bit, if not the overwhelming majority, of complaints that black people who mostly dislike atlanta express concerning the city usually boil down to some version of "too many black people" and while we can acknowledge certain shortcomings and room for improvement we have as a people, the harsh truth is that we've internalized the anti-black narrative that has been a constant theme in some form or another throughout the history of this county just as much as, if not more more than, other groups; this includes the belief that we have to be super exceptional in every way at all times just to meet the basic standard of being civilized and this renders us completely blind to the ways wherein we actually do excel. Besides my affinity for the city that goes way back, one reason why i defend atlanta and try to bring balance to overly heavy-handed criticisms of the city is because i want to push back against that narrative every chance i get. We can successfully run a major american city (and several of its suburbs) and increase opportunities for black folks in the process. I'm not going to let people get away after making cheap jabs about the "atlanta political machine," calling for more oversight, trying to depict it as being more corrupt than the russian government, etc. When those same folks didn't nearly keep the same energy in years past because it was their tribe benefiting from our oppression. The federal government failed us, the states failed us, but maynard and marion were like "well i can't get everybody everything they're owed but i'm gonna do what i can." folks been mad ever since but they'll be alright
And if we're truthful, a good bit, if not the overwhelming majority, of complaints that Black people who mostly dislike Atlanta express concerning the city usually boil down to some version of "too many Black people" and while we can acknowledge certain shortcomings and room for improvement we have as a people, the harsh truth is that we've internalized the anti-Black narrative that has been a constant theme in some form or another throughout the history of this county just as much as, if not more more than, other groups; this includes the belief that we have to be super exceptional in every way at all times just to meet the basic standard of being civilized and this renders us completely blind to the ways wherein we actually do excel. Besides my affinity for the city that goes way back, one reason why I defend Atlanta and try to bring balance to overly heavy-handed criticisms of the city is because I want to push back against that narrative every chance I get. We can successfully run a major American city (and several of its suburbs) and increase opportunities for Black folks in the process. I'm not going to let people get away after making cheap jabs about the "Atlanta political machine," calling for more oversight, trying to depict it as being more corrupt than the Russian government, etc. when those same folks didn't nearly keep the same energy in years past because it was their tribe benefiting from our oppression. The federal government failed us, the states failed us, but Maynard and Marion were like "Well I can't get everybody everything they're owed but I'm gonna do what I can." Folks been mad ever since but they'll be alright
And if we're truthful, a good bit, if not the overwhelming majority, of complaints that Black people who mostly dislike Atlanta express concerning the city usually boil down to some version of "too many Black people" and while we can acknowledge certain shortcomings and room for improvement we have as a people, the harsh truth is that we've internalized the anti-Black narrative that has been a constant theme in some form or another throughout the history of this county just as much as, if not more more than, other groups; this includes the belief that we have to be super exceptional in every way at all times just to meet the basic standard of being civilized and this renders us completely blind to the ways wherein we actually do excel. Besides my affinity for the city that goes way back, one reason why I defend Atlanta and try to bring balance to overly heavy-handed criticisms of the city is because I want to push back against that narrative every chance I get. We can successfully run a major American city (and several of its suburbs) and increase opportunities for Black folks in the process. I'm not going to let people get away after making cheap jabs about the "Atlanta political machine," calling for more oversight, trying to depict it as being more corrupt than the Russian government, etc. when those same folks didn't nearly keep the same energy in years past because it was their tribe benefiting from our oppression. The federal government failed us, the states failed us, but Maynard and Marion were like "Well I can't get everybody everything they're owed but I'm gonna do what I can." Folks been mad ever since but they'll be alright
Its an interesting phenomenon that is definitely not limited to any one race. But I have to wonder if it is more common in specific races than others.
My best friend in Dallas is Indian (Bengali). He moved to Dallas in 2004 and loved it for quite a few years. Now he cannot wait to leave. One of his biggest complaints is that it has become too Indian and there isnt anywhere in the Northern Dallas or Southern Collin counties that isnt "overrun" by them (his words not mine). In a way, on a statistical level Dallas' Indian growth has been more of a shock to the system. It went from having a marginal Indian community before 2000 to being positioned to pass Chicago for the 3rd largest Indian community in the US less than 20 years later. Some of the Indians I knew that have been in Dallas for decades almost resent it. The biggest complaint seems to be that the group can move in large groups and "take over" neighborhoods. Those that came to Dallas more than 20 years ago seemed to be more integrated into the local culture of the area. Statistically, DFW has the fastest growing Indian community in the US. The numbers below reflect Indian growth from 2013-2018. Perhaps its because this growth came so quickly that others in the community are unsure of it:
Dallas/Fort Worth: 80,799 (almost 70k of this number are in Dallas, Collin, and Denton counties alone)
San Francisco: 67,900
New York: 65,705
Chicago: 52,504
Washington DC: 52,439
Seattle: 40,968
Los Angeles: 40,680
Houston: 39,135
Atlanta: 39,008
San Jose: 35,998
Another group that does a lot of what youre saying: whites. This is especially true for white millennials, liberals, and the younger generation. I cannot tell you the number of times Ive heard "Oh my God so many white people" or "this place is too white" or "Im ashamed to be white" among this younger more liberal crowd. Where I get bothered is that I feel so much of it is not because they value diversity but rather they are virtue signaling. Its almost as if to say "Hey, look at me! Im one of the good ones!". It breeds a form of white guilt which I find completely stupid.
But I contrast this with my own people: Arabs. Overall, we LOVE living around one another and the more the better. I personally dont care but I contrast it with family and friends that live in Detroit. Detroit is the Arab population motherland outside the Middle East. Only NYC, Paris, and Montreal come close. But when I speak with friends and family there, you could not drag them out of Detroit. They wont consider any other place in the world to live. Detroit, despite all its issues, is still one of the leaders of Arab growth. Almost every other group is leaving, but Arabs still choose Detroit above almost every other place. Below are the growth numbers from 2013-2018 of new Arab residents. You might think nothing of it but keep in mind Detroit has been bleeding people for years and just now has become stable in population growth:
Houston: 22,421
Detroit: 19,963
New York: 18,766
Chicago: 13,810
Dallas: 12,348
Los Angeles: 11,600
Washington DC: 8,479
San Diego: 6,615
San Francisco: 5,778
Boston: 3,542
Atlanta: 3,011
It is an interesting phenomenon when people talk about not wanting to be around their own kind. I guess its all preference. I personally try to value diversity. I would be just as unhappy living off Warren Ave. in Detroit/Dearborn surrounded by nothing but my people as I would be living in a place thats 90% white/black/Asian/Latino/etc. Diversity is the cure of bigotry and a breeding ground of understanding and sympathy.
True and I totally get it especially in a state with 2 large metropolitan areas that are so similar yet has its noticeable differences.
Coming from Northeast Texas, most have a completely different perspective on the 2 cities. If you ask most Northeast Texas ppl which city would they prefer to live in I would say 70% would say DFW and 30% would go Houston. Now living and visiting are 2 different things. I think most would agree Houston offer a better cultural experience. A more hip and fun cultural experience than DFW. But DFW is easier and just more pleasant to live than Houston based off conversations I’ve had. And when the complaints are 1. Traffic 2. Humidity 3. Too big 4. Flooding 5. Looks dirty
I completely get it on paper. As a city not the cultural experience but the city itself for a lot of ppl I know Dallas just works better than Houston.
Agree and to add another data point to what you're saying, my family is from NE Texas as well (Tyler area) and I find that their opinion on Dallas and Houston is mostly dependent on two things 1) age and 2) lifestyle. Though the difference today is much smaller, Dallas has long had the reputation within Texas of being more conservative and more culturally white than Houston and older people tend to let go of stereotypes slower. My older, more conservative family members (60+) generally tend to prefer Dallas while the ones that are a bit more liberal tend to prefer Houston. Generally speaking, there's more familiarity with Dallas because of proximity as well - its long been the place where folks out there shop and fly from. I'd say the older ones its probably 60/40 in Dallas favor. Dallas is still a more "comfortable" place for many people from NE Texas imo.
My younger family members from that area though, its probably closer to 50/50 or a slight advantage to Houston just based on the fact that so many go to PV/TSU and never leave. That's how most of my family that lives in Houston got to the city, while most of the ones that moved to Dallas did so for a job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
And if we're truthful, a good bit, if not the overwhelming majority, of complaints that Black people who mostly dislike Atlanta express concerning the city usually boil down to some version of "too many Black people" and while we can acknowledge certain shortcomings and room for improvement we have as a people, the harsh truth is that we've internalized the anti-Black narrative that has been a constant theme in some form or another throughout the history of this county just as much as, if not more more than, other groups; this includes the belief that we have to be super exceptional in every way at all times just to meet the basic standard of being civilized and this renders us completely blind to the ways wherein we actually do excel. Besides my affinity for the city that goes way back, one reason why I defend Atlanta and try to bring balance to overly heavy-handed criticisms of the city is because I want to push back against that narrative every chance I get. We can successfully run a major American city (and several of its suburbs) and increase opportunities for Black folks in the process. I'm not going to let people get away after making cheap jabs about the "Atlanta political machine," calling for more oversight, trying to depict it as being more corrupt than the Russian government, etc. when those same folks didn't nearly keep the same energy in years past because it was their tribe benefiting from our oppression. The federal government failed us, the states failed us, but Maynard and Marion were like "Well I can't get everybody everything they're owed but I'm gonna do what I can." Folks been mad ever since but they'll be alright
Outstanding post and I think the fact that Atlanta has long offered so much opportunity for black folks (and, by extension, everyone) is one of its most unique features and selling points. A lot of the complaints about politics there seem to be folks almost looking for something to complain about.
Its an interesting phenomenon that is definitely not limited to any one race. But I have to wonder if it is more common in specific races than others.
My best friend in Dallas is Indian (Bengali). He moved to Dallas in 2004 and loved it for quite a few years. Now he cannot wait to leave. One of his biggest complaints is that it has become too Indian and there isnt anywhere in the Northern Dallas or Southern Collin counties that isnt "overrun" by them (his words not mine). In a way, on a statistical level Dallas' Indian growth has been more of a shock to the system. It went from having a marginal Indian community before 2000 to being positioned to pass Chicago for the 3rd largest Indian community in the US less than 20 years later. Some of the Indians I knew that have been in Dallas for decades almost resent it. The biggest complaint seems to be that the group can move in large groups and "take over" neighborhoods. Those that came to Dallas more than 20 years ago seemed to be more integrated into the local culture of the area. Statistically, DFW has the fastest growing Indian community in the US. The numbers below reflect Indian growth from 2013-2018. Perhaps its because this growth came so quickly that others in the community are unsure of it:
Dallas/Fort Worth: 80,799 (almost 70k of this number are in Dallas, Collin, and Denton counties alone)
San Francisco: 67,900
New York: 65,705
Chicago: 52,504
Washington DC: 52,439
Seattle: 40,968
Los Angeles: 40,680
Houston: 39,135
Atlanta: 39,008
San Jose: 35,998
Another group that does a lot of what youre saying: whites. This is especially true for white millennials, liberals, and the younger generation. I cannot tell you the number of times Ive heard "Oh my God so many white people" or "this place is too white" or "Im ashamed to be white" among this younger more liberal crowd. Where I get bothered is that I feel so much of it is not because they value diversity but rather they are virtue signaling. Its almost as if to say "Hey, look at me! Im one of the good ones!". It breeds a form of white guilt which I find completely stupid.
But I contrast this with my own people: Arabs. Overall, we LOVE living around one another and the more the better. I personally dont care but I contrast it with family and friends that live in Detroit. Detroit is the Arab population motherland outside the Middle East. Only NYC, Paris, and Montreal come close. But when I speak with friends and family there, you could not drag them out of Detroit. They wont consider any other place in the world to live. Detroit, despite all its issues, is still one of the leaders of Arab growth. Almost every other group is leaving, but Arabs still choose Detroit above almost every other place. Below are the growth numbers from 2013-2018 of new Arab residents. You might think nothing of it but keep in mind Detroit has been bleeding people for years and just now has become stable in population growth:
Houston: 22,421
Detroit: 19,963
New York: 18,766
Chicago: 13,810
Dallas: 12,348
Los Angeles: 11,600
Washington DC: 8,479
San Diego: 6,615
San Francisco: 5,778
Boston: 3,542
Atlanta: 3,011
It is an interesting phenomenon when people talk about not wanting to be around their own kind. I guess its all preference. I personally try to value diversity. I would be just as unhappy living off Warren Ave. in Detroit/Dearborn surrounded by nothing but my people as I would be living in a place thats 90% white/black/Asian/Latino/etc. Diversity is the cure of bigotry and a breeding ground of understanding and sympathy.
I have quite a few Arab friends that live in Atlanta and ALL of them have family in the Detroit area or Dearborn. Its very interesting and odd choice of a city but after living in the Middle East and knowing so many Arabs,its not surprising as Arabs are a group more than any that seem to stay closer to home around those that look like them.
You can see it even here in Atlanta as there is a large community aroung the largest Mosque in the Southeast
Its near Georgia Tech. Surrounded by Hookah lounges ,Middle Eastern Restaurants and of course a rug shop.lol
On the white comment,you are so right!lol
Every time I hear that I think the same thing."Dude.you are trying WAY to hard" is what I wanna say.Its refreshing when you meet a white person thats just comfortable in there own whiteness or idenity. You can tell a genuine person no matter what color they are
Its an interesting phenomenon that is definitely not limited to any one race. But I have to wonder if it is more common in specific races than others.
My best friend in Dallas is Indian (Bengali). He moved to Dallas in 2004 and loved it for quite a few years. Now he cannot wait to leave. One of his biggest complaints is that it has become too Indian and there isnt anywhere in the Northern Dallas or Southern Collin counties that isnt "overrun" by them (his words not mine). In a way, on a statistical level Dallas' Indian growth has been more of a shock to the system. It went from having a marginal Indian community before 2000 to being positioned to pass Chicago for the 3rd largest Indian community in the US less than 20 years later. Some of the Indians I knew that have been in Dallas for decades almost resent it. The biggest complaint seems to be that the group can move in large groups and "take over" neighborhoods. Those that came to Dallas more than 20 years ago seemed to be more integrated into the local culture of the area. Statistically, DFW has the fastest growing Indian community in the US. The numbers below reflect Indian growth from 2013-2018. Perhaps its because this growth came so quickly that others in the community are unsure of it:
Dallas/Fort Worth: 80,799 (almost 70k of this number are in Dallas, Collin, and Denton counties alone)
San Francisco: 67,900
New York: 65,705
Chicago: 52,504
Washington DC: 52,439
Seattle: 40,968
Los Angeles: 40,680
Houston: 39,135
Atlanta: 39,008
San Jose: 35,998
Another group that does a lot of what youre saying: whites. This is especially true for white millennials, liberals, and the younger generation. I cannot tell you the number of times Ive heard "Oh my God so many white people" or "this place is too white" or "Im ashamed to be white" among this younger more liberal crowd. Where I get bothered is that I feel so much of it is not because they value diversity but rather they are virtue signaling. Its almost as if to say "Hey, look at me! Im one of the good ones!". It breeds a form of white guilt which I find completely stupid.
But I contrast this with my own people: Arabs. Overall, we LOVE living around one another and the more the better. I personally dont care but I contrast it with family and friends that live in Detroit. Detroit is the Arab population motherland outside the Middle East. Only NYC, Paris, and Montreal come close. But when I speak with friends and family there, you could not drag them out of Detroit. They wont consider any other place in the world to live. Detroit, despite all its issues, is still one of the leaders of Arab growth. Almost every other group is leaving, but Arabs still choose Detroit above almost every other place. Below are the growth numbers from 2013-2018 of new Arab residents. You might think nothing of it but keep in mind Detroit has been bleeding people for years and just now has become stable in population growth:
Houston: 22,421
Detroit: 19,963
New York: 18,766
Chicago: 13,810
Dallas: 12,348
Los Angeles: 11,600
Washington DC: 8,479
San Diego: 6,615
San Francisco: 5,778
Boston: 3,542
Atlanta: 3,011
It is an interesting phenomenon when people talk about not wanting to be around their own kind. I guess its all preference. I personally try to value diversity. I would be just as unhappy living off Warren Ave. in Detroit/Dearborn surrounded by nothing but my people as I would be living in a place thats 90% white/black/Asian/Latino/etc. Diversity is the cure of bigotry and a breeding ground of understanding and sympathy.
Thanks a lot for sharing this. I'm familiar with the virtue signaling that occurs among some younger White progressives (although some actually do value diversity), but what you say about Indians and Arabs was very, very enlightening. I'd think that Hispanics in general are more like Arabs than Indians.
There's another aspect to the sentiment of "too many Black people" among some Black people: class. In actuality, middle-class/affluent Blacks live in two worlds: the American mainstream which is dominated by Whites, and our own subculture which we share with the working-class/poor which results in what legendary Black educator and scholar W.E.B. DuBois termed "double consciousness." (This is a dynamic that a lot of people miss, including Black immigrants, especially when comparisons are made between immigrant groups and their descendants and Black Americans but that's another subject altogether.) Due to the legacy of institutionalized discrimination in America, any city with a sizable Black population will have plenty of Black folks in the middle/upper-middle class as well as the working class/underclass, and they will be living in relatively close proximity to each other. This comes with its own set of tensions with much of it based on differences between the two groups in what is perceived as acceptable public behavior; this is significant because in America, only Whites truly have the privilege of individuality whereas everyone else is perceived as members of a racial/ethnic group first and foremost, and middle-class and affluent Black people are especially sensitive to behaviors and attitudes within our group that would appear to support and justify the national anti-Black narrative and its broad-based and heavy-handed prescriptions that don't just disproportionately harm Blacks as a whole, but also winds up ensnaring people of all races/ethnicities. Among Black people, this is called respectability politics...and it doesn't work. It has never saved us and never will.
Outstanding post and I think the fact that Atlanta has long offered so much opportunity for black folks (and, by extension, everyone) is one of its most unique features and selling points. A lot of the complaints about politics there seem to be folks almost looking for something to complain about.
There's another aspect to the sentiment of "too many Black people" among some Black people: class. In actuality, middle-class/affluent Blacks live in two worlds: the American mainstream which is dominated by Whites, and our own subculture which we share with the working-class/poor which results in what legendary Black educator and scholar W.E.B. DuBois termed "double consciousness." (This is a dynamic that a lot of people miss, including Black immigrants, especially when comparisons are made between immigrant groups and their descendants and Black Americans but that's another subject altogether.) Due to the legacy of institutionalized discrimination in America, any city with a sizable Black population will have plenty of Black folks in the middle/upper-middle class as well as the working class/underclass, and they will be living in relatively close proximity to each other. This comes with its own set of tensions with much of it based on differences between the two groups in what is perceived as acceptable public behavior; this is significant because in America, only Whites truly have the privilege of individuality whereas everyone else is perceived as members of a racial/ethnic group first and foremost, and middle-class and affluent Black people are especially sensitive to behaviors and attitudes within our group that would appear to support and justify the national anti-Black narrative and its broad-based and heavy-handed prescriptions that don't just disproportionately harm Blacks as a whole, but also winds up ensnaring people of all races/ethnicities. Among Black people, this is called respectability politics...and it doesn't work. It has never saved us and never will.
Amen. Another brilliant post, Brother Mute.
(Particularly the bolded and underlined above.)
Last edited by aries4118; 05-16-2020 at 01:02 PM..
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