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I'm not sure why you're using the term "gerrymandering," nor am I sure why you're referring to the 1950s.
You can still measure contiguous urbanism, even if it's not consistent in every direction. Population density within a 50 sqmi area is also another critical indicator that Pittsburgh absolutely overtakes Providence.
Pittsburgh has an unquestionably more urban downtown than Providence, for starters.
You do realize that a neighborhood like this is the predominant vernacular of Providence, right?
Whereas this is the predominant vernacular of Pittsburgh, to say nothing of its rowhome areas that don't exist in Providence.
I'm just not seeing what you claim here.
Yes but going 17 miles up the Mon Valley while omitting areas like 3 miles from Downtown Pittsburgh would be required to get anywhere near 380,000 people in the 50 sq miles. Because right now that number is maybe 280,000. That’s what I mean by Gerrymandering.
You would end up with some silly collection of towns rather than something that’s reasonably Pittsburgh’s core areas. The South Hills for example totally lacks any sort of cohesive urban fabric and are basically impossible to walk between there are basically 3 roads that leave Duquesne heights and that’s less than a mile from Downtown Pittsburgh
Again at like 15-18 sq miles, Pittsburgh easily wins but then it’s urban fabric breaks up and becomes very patchy while Providence knits nicely into Pawtucket and Central falls.
Last edited by btownboss4; 02-04-2023 at 06:06 PM..
I'm not sure why you're using the term "gerrymandering," nor am I sure why you're referring to the 1960s.
You can still measure contiguous urbanism, even if it's not consistent in every direction. Population density within a 50 sqmi area is also another critical indicator that Pittsburgh absolutely overtakes Providence.
Pittsburgh has an unquestionably more urban downtown than Providence, for starters.
You do realize that a neighborhood like this is the predominant vernacular of Providence, right?
Whereas this is the predominant vernacular of Pittsburgh, to say nothing of its rowhome areas that don't exist in Providence.
I'm just not seeing what you claim here.
Wow thats a cherry picked shot of Providence’s “predominant vernacular”
Also Pittsburghs downtown is tiny, we’re talking about 50 square miles. Pittsburgh was great but it wasn’t noticeably more urban than Providence and was definitely definitely more abandoned/hollowed out/ patchy. And more interesting and beautiful in person as a result.
It’s so much less dense and you can tell. I mean it’s at like 50% of the density dude...
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 02-04-2023 at 06:06 PM..
Wow thats a cherry picked shot of Providence’s “predominant vernacular”!!
Also Pittsburghs downtown is tiny, we’re talking about 50 square miles. Pittsburgh was great but it wasn’t noticeably more urban than Providence and was definitely definitely more abandoned/hollowed out/ patchy. And more interesting and beautiful in person as a result.
I assure you that nothing was cherry-picked. I honestly did my very best to represent the "average" neighborhood in both cities. That's how Providence looks over the lion's share of the city. It is what it is.
And I feel like we're talking about two wildly different perceptions, here. Providence has much less height and is less developed than downtown Pittsburgh.
I'm seriously doing my best to be fair and impartial here. You're telling me that you can find this in downtown Providence? Really?
I really like Providence. It's a gem of a little city. But it's definitely not in the realm of Pittsburgh for "big city" vibes--not even close. This is as urban as it gets in Providence.
I assure you that nothing was cherry-picked. I honestly did my very best to represent the "average" neighborhood in both cities. That's how Providence looks over the lion's share of the city. It is what it is.
And I feel like we're talking about two wildly different perceptions, here. Providence has much less height and is less developed than downtown Pittsburgh.
I'm seriously doing my best to be fair and impartial here. You're telling me that you can find this in downtown Providence? Really?
I really like Providence. It's a gem of a little city. But it's definitely not in the realm of Pittsburgh for "big city" vibes--not even close. This is as urban as it gets in Providence.
Yea I’m sorry but is Pittsburgh’s downtown 50 square miles? More like .5 square miles. We’re talking about 50 square miles and Pittsburgh vs Providence isn’t particularly close IMO. Pittsburgh is defined more by hill and rivers- natural features. The downtown is more intense but over 50 square miles Providence has more height than Pittsburgh. Due to rowhomes being pretty short in general and triple deckers being relatively overbuilt .
Providence has a nice downtown that’s definitely urban
Again at like 15-18 sq miles, Pittsburgh easily wins but then it’s urban fabric breaks up and becomes very patchy while Providence knits nicely into Pawtucket and Central falls.
This is a lot more logical. I completely understand what you're saying; the Providence area is more consistently developed outside of the city limits, but the comparison is interesting, because you still have nodes of urbanism in more multi-nodal form across Allegheny County, like Homestead, Ambridge, or Crafton.
It would actually be a very interesting match-up at 50-square miles. I'll have to delve into the population density figures more.
This is a lot more logical. I completely understand what you're saying; the Providence area is more consistently developed outside of the city limits, but the comparison is interesting, because you still have nodes of urbanism in more multi-nodal form across Allegheny County, like Homestead, Ambridge, or Crafton.
It would actually be a very interesting match-up at 50-square miles. I'll have to delve into the population density figures more.
Yea, I think Pittsburgh has a decent argument for a placement roughly after Miami. At 50 contiguous square miles, it's a bit of a free for all of older, mid-sized industrial cities, "densifying" cores of a few of the largest sunbelt cities, and mid-sized to smaller cities that are have a strong mix off private and public sector economic pillars (a lot of state capital / university town pairs that punch above their weight). One thing to note is that Providence and some of its neighboring more urban municipalities have had a pretty healthy growth spurt between 2010 and 2020 while Pittsburgh's mostly stayed steady in that time while a couple of dense, neighboring parts like Wilkinsburg that you may have eschewed some of Pittsburgh proper for to get the most urban 50 contiguous square miles unfortunately lost population between 2010 and 2020. Whoever did the 90 Pittsburgh neighborhood entries on wikipedia did a great job for the 2010 census, so if we can cobble up up a 50 square mile with densest municipalities for that with 2020 numbers, that'd be pretty neat. I'd think that obvious neighborhoods to drop for Pittsburgh would be Windgap, East Carnegie, St. Clair, Hays, New Homestead, and Lincoln Place in favor of municipalities like Wilkinsburg, Aspinwall, and Sharpsburg.
For other industrial giants of the northeast and midwest, I'd think that Detroit will be pruned quite a bit and would work in at least Hamtramck among other municipalities, and St. Louis would likely exclude the more emptied out North Side neighborhoods in favor of a few close-in St. Louis County areas.
I think it'd be great if we have people making contiguous 50 square miles with rationale and data sources though and to all throw on to a list together.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-05-2023 at 10:41 AM..
Yea, I think Pittsburgh has a decent argument for a placement roughly after Miami. At 50 contiguous square miles, it's a bit of a free for all of older, mid-sized industrial cities, "densifying" cores of a few of the largest sunbelt cities, and mid-sized to smaller cities that are have a strong mix off private and public sector economic pillars (a lot of state capital / university town pairs that punch above their weight). One thing to note is that Providence and some of its neighboring more urban municipalities have had a pretty healthy growth spurt between 2010 and 2020 while Pittsburgh's mostly stayed steady in that time while a couple of dense, neighboring parts like Wilkinsburg that you may have eschewed some of Pittsburgh proper for to get the most urban 50 contiguous square miles unfortunately lost population between 2010 and 2020. Whoever did the 90 Pittsburgh neighborhood entries on wikipedia did a great job for the 2010 census, so if we can cobble up up a 50 square mile with densest municipalities for that with 2020 numbers, that'd be pretty neat. I'd think that obvious neighborhoods to drop for Pittsburgh would be Windgap, East Carnegie, St. Clair, Hays, New Homestead, and Lincoln Place in favor of municipalities like Wilkinsburg, Aspinwall, and Sharpsburg.
For other industrial giants of the northeast and midwest, I'd think that Detroit will be pruned quite a bit and would work in at least Hamtramck among other municipalities, and St. Louis would likely exclude the more emptied out North Side neighborhoods in favor of a few close-in St. Louis County areas.
I think it'd be great if we have people making contiguous 50 square miles with rationale and data sources though and to all throw on to a list together.
Pittsburg struggles with continuity. Walking for neighborhood to neighborhood typically requires traversing a could mostly undeveloped steep hillsides. And because roads wind it’s not uncommon to walk a mile to go 1/2 a mile. Places like South Side Flats or Shadyside are pretty much unmatched outside the Big 5 they’re also not very well connected to things
Yea, I think Pittsburgh has a decent argument for a placement roughly after Miami. At 50 contiguous square miles, it's a bit of a free for all of older, mid-sized industrial cities, "densifying" cores of a few of the largest sunbelt cities, and mid-sized to smaller cities that are have a strong mix off private and public sector economic pillars (a lot of state capital / university town pairs that punch above their weight). One thing to note is that Providence and some of its neighboring more urban municipalities have had a pretty healthy growth spurt between 2010 and 2020 while Pittsburgh's mostly stayed steady in that time while a couple of dense, neighboring parts like Wilkinsburg that you may have eschewed some of Pittsburgh proper for to get the most urban 50 contiguous square miles unfortunately lost population between 2010 and 2020. Whoever did the 90 Pittsburgh neighborhood entries on wikipedia did a great job for the 2010 census, so if we can cobble up up a 50 square mile with densest municipalities for that with 2020 numbers, that'd be pretty neat. I'd think that obvious neighborhoods to drop for Pittsburgh would be Windgap, East Carnegie, St. Clair, Hays, New Homestead, and Lincoln Place in favor of municipalities like Wilkinsburg, Aspinwall, and Sharpsburg.
For other industrial giants of the northeast and midwest, I'd think that Detroit will be pruned quite a bit and would work in at least Hamtramck among other municipalities, and St. Louis would likely exclude the more emptied out North Side neighborhoods in favor of a few close-in St. Louis County areas.
I think it'd be great if we have people making contiguous 50 square miles with rationale and data sources though and to all throw on to a list together.
Pittsburg struggles with continuity. Walking for neighborhood to neighborhood typically requires traversing a could mostly undeveloped steep hillsides. And because roads wind it’s not uncommon to walk a mile to go 1/2 a mile. Places like South Side Flats or Shadyside are pretty much unmatched outside the Big 5 they’re also not very well connected to things. The Strip is cool, but it’s called the strip cause well, it’s a strip
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