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Well, of the towns BostonBornMassMade listed, only Randolph, Milton, Avon and Stoughton had Black population shares above the national figure (we make up 12% of the country's population IIRC). Most of the other communities had Black population shares comparable to these:
Lower Merion Township, Montgomery County: 5.2% Black, MHI $136,288 (South Ardmore, which I mentioned in my most recent post, lies partly in this township)
Haverford Township, Delaware County: 3.1% Black, MHI $111,287 (the rest of South Ardmore lies in this township)
Radnor Township, Delaware County: 4.9% Black, MHI $127,161 (Wayne is its commercial center)
Tredyffrin Township, Chester County: 3.1% Black, MHI $136,429 (locus of the 1930s school-segregation fight)
Abington Township, Montgomery County: 11.1% Black, MHI $94,863
Cheltenham Township, Montgomery County: 34.6% Black, MHI $85,217
(Black History Note: This community also has a historically Black settlement dating back to the pre-Civil War days: La Mott, named for Quaker abolitionist Lucretia Mott. Camp William Penn, where one of the first regiments of U.S. Colored Troops trained for service in the Civil War, was located in this community as well)
Springfield Township, Montgomery County: 10.4% Black, MHI $104,417
Springfield Township, Delaware County: 1.2% Black, MHI $116,313
Media Borough, Delaware County seat: 6.1% Black, MHI $77,708
West Chester Borough, Chester County seat: 7.9% Black, MHI $61,837*
(What was it BBMM was saying about poverty here? Worth noting: West Chester is the only one of the four collar-county seats that's a college town: it's home to the oldest and largest of the 14 former state normal schools (teachers' colleges) that together comprise the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education, West Chester University. The student population that counts the borough as its home probably also puts a dent in the MHI)
West Goshen Township, Chester County: 3.2% Black, MHI $101,452*
East Goshen Township, Chester County: 2.2% Black, MHI $86,358*
East Bradford Township, Chester County: 4.5% Black, MHI $129,452*
West Whiteland Township, Chester County: 4.8% Black, MHI $114,837*
Westtown Township, Chester County: 2.5% Black, MHI $119,177*
Thornbury Township, Delaware County: 7.5% Black, MHI $163,047*
*These municipalities, along with Thornbury Township, Chester County, comprise the West Chester Area School District. The Chester County Thornbury has a population less than the 5,000 required to be included in the Census Bureau's Quick Facts database.)
The county seats are clearly not as affluent as the suburban townships, but I'd say these places stack up against the Greater Boston communities in BBMM's list. (Doylestown Borough, the Bucks County seat, has a small black population share (1%), and Norristown, the Montgomery County seat, is not at all affluent (37.2% Black, MHI $48,414).)
There is no Greater Philly suburb that is both as affluent and as Black as Randolph, but as you see above, Cheltenham Township comes close. There is also no Philadelphia analogue for Cambridge, which isn't really a suburb but rather a separately incorporated part of the urban core and a college town to boot. For Boston to cover as much territory as Philadelphia (135 square miles), it would have to annex Cambridge, Brookline, Somerville, Everett, Chelsea, Newton and half of Winthrop. That would give the combined city a population of about 1.3 million, slightly below Philadelphia's 1.5 million.
In terms of educational attainment, Philadelphia (city and metro) remains below Boston's level. But the share of college-educated residents has been rising here of late.
Your leaving off the populations of these places which I'm confident are much smaller than Bostons towns. Most of these tiny philly burbs have like 9k people.
But I would say even in percentages and number of towns-Boston had the slight edge which is amazing given how much smaller the black population in the region is.
I'm curious about areas of Pittsburgh that may fit some of the criteria. I know a couple of posters could give some insight, but I believe that its parts of its Northside, East End and Westside has a visible black middle class. I believe in terms of its suburbs, Penn Hills, Monroeville, Churchill and Sewickley are some with a visible black middle class. Hopefully, someone will clarify.
The black middle class(and even some of the working class) are fleeing the Pittsburgh metro. Lack of well paying jobs or ability to get ahead. Gentrification has pushed the underclass further east and northwest Allegheny. There are middle class blacks here but it's scattered and not to the extent of others on the list.
There's a reason why Pittsburgh is noted for being a lousy place for blacks to reside. Can't wait to bounce by the spring.
Your leaving off the populations of these places which I'm confident are much smaller than Bostons towns. Most of these tiny philly burbs have like 9k people.
But I would say even in percentages and number of towns-Boston had the slight edge which is amazing given how much smaller the black population in the region is.
That's simply false. These are some of the most populous towns in the Philly area. Just a few:
Lower Merion: 59,578
Radnor: 31,770
Tredyffrin: 29,504
Abington: 55,468
Cheltenham: 37,219
Springfield (Montco): 19,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Comparing PA to MA on schools and desirability is an L. Mass. is a notch above so I'm not terribly impressed by what's considered best for PA-maybe that is unfair. As ar as comparing top schools I'm sure you've heard of Boston Latin School- the number 1 high school in Massachusetts?. John D O'Bryant is 10th.
I'm getting the sense that there's not much numeric or anecdotal data that would convince you that a sizable black middle-class in fact exists in the Philly area. I don't know what else can be said other than that the numbers are there. It may be considered a bit ironic that metro Boston has one town that surpasses any in the Philly area in terms of both black income/percentage. But one town is one town, and I'm not sure how it speaks for an entire metro area.
We've talked about income ad nauseum, but in actuality neither Philly's or Boston's overall numbers are anything to write home about in context and both definitely have MUCH work to do to achieve greater parity with white counterparts.
I'll also say that "desirability" is really an emotional and preferential term that can often be very subjective, so that's a road that none of us should go down.
At the end of the day, I think it's fair to say that the preconditions for a successful middle-class black family exist in both regions, and whether one is "better" comes down to very individualized experiences.
Lower Merion Township, Montgomery County: 5.2% Black, MHI $136,288 59k
Haverford Township, Delaware County: 3.1% Black, MHI $111,287 )49k
Radnor Township, Delaware County: 4.9% Black, MHI $127,161 31k
Tredyffrin Township, Chester County: 3.1% Black, MHI $136,429) 29k
Abington Township, Montgomery County: 11.1% Black, MHI $94,863 55k
Cheltenham Township, Montgomery County: 34.6% Black, MHI $85,217
37k
Springfield Township, Montgomery County: 10.4% Black, MHI $104,417 19k
Media Borough, Delaware County seat: 6.1% Black, MHI $77,708 5k
West Chester Borough, Chester County seat: 7.9% Black, MHI $61,837*
20k
West Goshen Township, Chester County: 3.2% Black, MHI $101,452* 23k
East Bradford Township, Chester County: 4.5% Black, MHI $129,452* 10k
West Whiteland Township, Chester County: 4.8% Black, MHI $114,837*19k
Westtown Township, Chester County: 2.5% Black, MHI $119,177* 11k
Thornbury Township, Delaware County: 7.5% Black, MHI $163,047* 8k
MEL you listed 13 towns with a population of 3%+ black that were on average 8.8% black and had an average MHI of $110,000. 364k people or 26.7k per township.
32,300 black people of the 1,220,000 black people in the region. 2.6% living in high-income towns Cmon. This is a total JOKE guys.. Why bother?
I listed 17 towns with a population of 3%+ black that were on average 8.9% Black and had an average MHI of $117,000. 749k people or 44k per town.
67k black people out of 389k in the area. 17.2% living in high-income towns. I really could list Boston as its income matches the statewide median income and it higher than some suburban town you have on here (unlike Philly) but I wont
...
Want to debate further? Please just admit you're arguing off legacy and perception and not reality and fact and call it a day. This is not even remotely close.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 01-06-2021 at 09:08 AM..
That's simply false. These are some of the most populous towns in the Philly area. Just a few:
Lower Merion: 59,578
Radnor: 31,770
Tredyffrin: 29,504
Abington: 55,468
Cheltenham: 37,219
Springfield (Montco): 19,904
I'm getting the sense that there's not much numeric or anecdotal data that would convince you that a sizable black middle-class in fact exists in the Philly area. I don't know what else can be said other than that the numbers are there. It may be considered a bit ironic that metro Boston has one town that surpasses any in the Philly area in terms of both black income/percentage. But one town is one town, and I'm not sure how it speaks for an entire metro area.
We've talked about income ad nauseum, but in actuality neither Philly's or Boston's overall numbers are anything to write home about in context and both definitely have MUCH work to do to achieve greater parity with white counterparts.
I'll also say that "desirability" is really an emotional and preferential term that can often be very subjective, so that's a road that none of us should go down.
At the end of the day, I think it's fair to say that the preconditions for a successful middle-class black family exist in both regions, and whether one is "better" comes down to very individualized experiences.
See my last post.
You haven't provided any evidence whatsoever that a sizable black middle-class exist in Philly. Unless you count 2.6% of the region black population lmao. With 50% making less than 41k a year. Get outta town.
In terms of 13224, its black population is more middle class and has a longer history of being so. Many live in the predominantly black working, middle class Salt Springs neighborhood, particularly in its eastern portion near Le Moyne College like this street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0494...7i13312!8i6656
So, due to the dynamics, you get a wide range of student results, which can include black valedictorians that go to Ivy League schools. One currently is at Cornell and another in the past graduated from Harvard and later Northwestern's Medill School of Communications. Some alumni: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorsey_Levens
Among others...Something to keep in mind is that Syracuse's black percentage from 1980-2010 doubled from 15.5% to 31.1%(black alone and in combination non-Hispanic). So, this is a city that has seen its black population grow: https://s4.ad.brown.edu/projects/div...cityid=3673000 and in turn, political/leadership representation has grown.
As for the Say Yes to Education Program, which is the bolded information and could apply to anyone, Buffalo also has this scholarship program citywide. https://sayyestoeducation.org/where-we-work/
So, if you go with the city of Buffalo, you have plenty of non private options and all would allow you to qualify for the scholarship program. Some that go private may go with city schools such as Canisius(all male, good Football program), Bishop Timon-St. Jude in South Buffalo, The Nichols School, Nardin(girls), Mount Mercy(girls), Academy of the Sacred Heart(girls) or if they go outside of the city schools such as The Park School(very good Boys Basketball program), Cardinal O'Hara in Tonawanda(very good Girls Basketball program), St. Joe's in Kenmore(boys, good Football program), St. Francis(boys, also known for Football program) and St. Mary's in Lancaster.
As for the city in relation to the thread, I'd say that North Buffalo, Elmwood Village, Parkside, Central Park(neighborhood), the NE corner of the city(parts of University/University Heights, Kensington Heights), Linwood and parts of the Allentown and Hamlin Park neighborhoods would have a presence of such families. Hamlin Park is actually a historically designated neighborhood with a long history of having a black middle class, with some streets retaining that character better than others: https://buffaloah.com/h/hamln/hamlin.html
Nearby Parkside across Main Street is another historic style neighborhood with a long time and visible black middle class due to the neighbors standing firm in staying the neighborhood versus leaving: https://parksidebuffalo.org/index.php
The eastern half of these middle class census tracts cover much of the neighborhood(in between Delaware and Main) and it is also very close to Elmwood Village: https://censusreporter.org/profiles/...t-169-erie-ny/
Keep in mind that this is a city with around 100,000 black residents, give or take/who you include(about 36-40% of the city) and quite a bit of black people in leadership positions(mayor, police chief, school superintendent, city council president(also a prominent pastor in the city), a deputy fire commissioner, President of Buffalo State College(about 33% of students are black), etc.
Once things open up, you are less than 100 miles from Downtown Toronto and for the family, there's Niagara Falls, Darien Lake amusement park, historical sites, etc.
If you want suburbs, Eggertsville in Amherst(Amherst Central SD, very good schools), Cleveland Hill in Cheektowaga(Cleveland Hill SD, solid schools), the Sweet Home SD in Amherst(solid/good schools), Cheektowaga Central SD(solid schools) and Maryvale SD in Cheektowaga(solid schools) are suburbs with higher black populations that others. Williamsville SD is arguably the area's top SD and has historically been another suburban SD where some athletes/coaches/professionals have lived, with the zones for South and North Highs having more of a presence. Some go with the Kenmore-Tonawanda SD, with Kenmore West having more of a presence historically; Cheektowaga-Sloan and West Seneca Schools as well. Lackawanna is a steel town that has had a long time and quite visible black population that is largely concentrated on its west side(known for having some very good Football teams at times). Ironically, a lot of the Bills players live near the stadium/facility in the Southtowns(Orchard Park and Hamburg) south of the city, while most of these listed suburbs are North/NE/East of the city.
It’s likely not a winner, but it may not be the worst of the options (Harrisburg?).
I’m really surprised that Hartford isn’t an option. This article is a bit old, but it has both Hartford and Providence in the “good and gaining ground†category. Boston is “good and losing ground†along with NYC. Philly is “bad and losing ground†per the article, which is admittedly a bit surprising.
Hey for the sake of transparency I gotta strike everything I said about Norfolk down. remember MCI-Norfolk/Norfolk State Prison is there. Total rub.
But Norwood is a nice town 4.5x the times of Media 6% black with a median income of 91k.
I do know Norwood to be home to some black private school kids when I was growing up. Like a cheaper Canton. Norfolk and Norwell are definitely different.
I have to be honest I have family in Norwood and visit just about every year. I have never seen a black person there.
That's simply false. These are some of the most populous towns in the Philly area. Just a few:
Lower Merion: 59,578
Radnor: 31,770
Tredyffrin: 29,504
Abington: 55,468
Cheltenham: 37,219
Springfield (Montco): 19,904
I'm getting the sense that there's not much numeric or anecdotal data that would convince you that a sizable black middle-class in fact exists in the Philly area. I don't know what else can be said other than that the numbers are there. It may be considered a bit ironic that metro Boston has one town that surpasses any in the Philly area in terms of both black income/percentage. But one town is one town, and I'm not sure how it speaks for an entire metro area.
We've talked about income ad nauseum, but in actuality neither Philly's or Boston's overall numbers are anything to write home about in context and both definitely have MUCH work to do to achieve greater parity with white counterparts.
I'll also say that "desirability" is really an emotional and preferential term that can often be very subjective, so that's a road that none of us should go down.
At the end of the day, I think it's fair to say that the preconditions for a successful middle-class black family exist in both regions, and whether one is "better" comes down to very individualized experiences.
A friend of mine is a Jamaican from Hyde Park, just a 10 minute walk from my house-he attended my rival private school. At some point in HS he moved to Norwood, when he branched out on his own he loved further south to Providence, now he's back in Norwood. Definitely black people in Norwood.
I have seen black people there, a few times. The schools are 10-11% black. I read about a black Norwoodian in the South Shore regional paper. I don't know how you wouldn't see black people in Norwood... if you're there fairly often
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 01-06-2021 at 09:30 AM..
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