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Cleveland...safer city...not as hollowed out....has the rapid to get around on...better museums, better zoo...the metroparks...great foodie culture...better sports.
I think Detroit is better. I wouldn't say amazingly so but more things to do. Detroit feels more cosmopolitan imo. I like the architecture and civic pride. Everyone I have met from Detroit is very proud to be from that city.
Outside of maybe architecture, don't see a whole lot difference between the two and even architecture (outside of Detroit having a bunch of 100-year-old art deco skyscrapers) is pretty much a wash. So is the overall size of the two downtowns.
I like to think I'm pretty fair on both cities (and have defended both cities on this site since they both take unfair beatings on here overall). The easy answer is visit both if possible because both easily outkick the stereotypes.
If it's one or the other, really just flip a coin and then add the loser to a possible visit sometime down the line.
My takes:
1. Detroit is larger overall, but it really doesn't feel like it at the city level. What I mean by that is Detroit city limits are something like 140 square miles to Cleveland's 78. You take Cleveland's inner burbs out to 140 square miles (and some of the best neighborhoods are now included despite not being in the "city") and there hasn't been a big disparity between the two in my lifetime (born in 1980). Just taking city of Detroit (140 square miles) and adding Cleveland up to 140 square miles and in my lifetime, it's been:
1990s: Detroit - 1.2 million; Cleveland - 927,000 (+275,000 for Detroit)
2000: Detroit - 1.028 million; Cleveland - 836,000 (+192,000 for Detroit)
2010: Detroit - 951,000; Cleveland - 789,000 (+162,000 for Detroit)
2010: Detroit - 714,000; Cleveland - 678,000 (+36,000 for Detroit)
2020: Detroit - 639,000; Cleveland - 651,000 (+11,000 for Cleveland)
Both are poster cities for white-flight sprawl, but Detroit's sprawl has moved out at a much quicker rate (and both metros overall are almost identical in black percentage ... the driver for white flight).
Cleveland has no match for Oakland and Macomb counties in terms of population (even if you include Summit County/Akron for Cleveland; and Cleveland has no Ann Arbor, though that's about 45 minutes away from Detroit). So, IMO, while Detroit is the much larger metro, it isn't that much bigger at the core and hasn't been in 50-60 years.
2. Downtowns - It's now a wash, which is crazy to say because Cleveland, once they put their pro sports teams back downtown, had a 20-year head start. Even 10 years ago, downtown Detroit was hoping to get to downtown Cleveland levels. In the past 10 years (and having someone like Dan Gilbert leading the charge), Detroit has been on hyper drive. I still don't think that downtown Detroit is any better than downtown Cleveland (it has better shopping options, but Cleveland still is better for entertainment), but that gap has been closed in a big way to where it's a wash. Downtown Detroit, though, is night and day different for anybody who hasn't been there recently.
3. Neighborhoods - This is hands down where Cleveland is still WAY ahead at least near the core (Detroit has some great urban-type burbs but like 10-15 miles outside the city center). Part of the reason Detroit has gained on Cleveland downtown is that Cleveland has turned a lot of its investments to inner-city neighborhoods, where Detroit is still downtown focused. Not that Detroit doesn't have a couple nice neighborhoods, but no where close to Cleveland, especially if you take into account areas like Lakewood and Coventry, for example, which are outside the city but within the 130 square mile sphere. Cleveland still has some "Detroit" style abandoned areas (including in East Cleveland which is in that 130 square mile sphere but outside the city), but not near to the extent of Detroit. So, if you want to explore neighborhoods and not, for the most part, have to travel 10-15 miles outside downtown to do that, Cleveland wins.
4. Uptown areas: Like downtown, another one that is a draw. Detroit's is more connected to downtown (and has the Woodward street car), but it's also closer to downtown than Cleveland's uptown. Cleveland's midtown/uptown is also seeing major revitalization (and is connected to downtown with the Healthline BRT and Red Line heavy rail) but it's a couple miles further away from downtown Cleveland than uptown Detroit is to downtown Detroit ... and some of the most "Detroit" style abandoned neighborhoods are still in that area between downtown and uptown Cleveland (midtown). So, Cleveland still has a way to go (and more literal ground to cover) to reconnect the two. Once you get to the uptown areas, close, but I'm going to lean Cleveland. University Circle/Little Italy has been exploding with development and it's speeding up (plus the Heights is right there too).
I did a weekend in Cleveland for 3 days last year and had fun. It's a beautiful city, though they have some mentally ill homeless that they need to take action on. Their metro system is downright scary (some homeless said I was photographing him and was going to kill me....while I was locked in a train car with him).
But you can't go wrong with Angel of Haserot, The Arcade, Cleveland Museum of Art, Downtown, Heinen's Downtown, Hope Memorial Bridge, Lake View Cemetery, Little Italy, Playhouse Square, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Severance Hall, Terminal City, and West Side Market.
I actually ran out of time and couldn't do Cuyahoga Valley National Park, Cedar Point, Tremont, A Christmas Story House, Shaker Heights, Superelectric Pinball Parlor, etc.
I have Detroit on the docket for May for 4 days and I'm expecting similar.
For those interested in high culture, Cleveland seriously trumps Detroit IMO. However, the Henry Ford, located 14 miles from downtown Detroit, is one of the nation's great history attractions and home to one of the nation's best industry tours -- the Ford Rouge Factory Tour, one of the remnants of the factory complex that arguably proved decisive in the Allied victory in WWII. Greenfield Village's Halloween (where else will you see the Headless Horseman?) and Christmas events are top-notch, especially for families. The Henry Ford is a unique American experience, missed by too many Americans IMO, although perhaps the Greenfield Village attractions have faded somewhat in relevance as American history continues to evolve; yet the village's Model Ts still evoke joy, as does the relocated Edison lab. The Henry Ford Museum is superb, even though not as well known as Greenwich Village.
1) The Cleveland Museum of Art, rebuilt in the last decade, is one of the nation's great 21st century art museums -- completely digital, extremely visitor friendly, and with its great Asian collections, pre-Columbian art of the Americas, textiles, etc., it's much more enjoyable IMO than the Detroit Institute of Arts Museum. The CMA also has a top-notch film and performing arts program, although it hasn't been fully restored to its pre-pandemic level. For out-of-town tourists, the CMA is somewhat unique in that it has absolutely no general admission charge. The DIA charges $14 for adults and $7 for children over age 5.
Check out the CMA ArtLens Gallery and ArtLens App (definitely download before a visit), as well as the other ArtLens digital offerings. The DIA, like most American museums, doesn't offer such an interactive experience.
When rebuilt, the CMA was designed to use filtered natural light, often provided by its new, very large central atrium. Seating is plentiful, including strategically placed benches throughout its galleries.
Although I haven't visited the DIA in several years, when I last visited it, there was a paucity of benches. In many galleries, folding chairs were offered for visitors to carry around! While the DIA has an amazing collection of European art and the celebrated Diego Rivera murals, its galleries lacked the excitement and diversity of the new CMA. One notable exception was in Native American art and culture, which seems almost entirely neglected at the CMA, which has one of the best Asian art collections in the U.S.
The CMA collection is relatively small in numbers (as is the DIA collection) compared with some museums, such as the Met, but the CMA collection style is to emphasize quality over quantity, and to display such objects with highly superior curation, including digital descriptions available throughout the museum. Its European armor court is a favorite of children of all ages.
The CMA's modern exhibit spaces, collection of superior art objects, and one of the largest endowments among American art museums, allows the CMA to attract and organize very superior exhibits, often in conjunction with other leading global museums. As with other museums, the CMA exhibition efforts have been greatly stymied by the pandemic.
Located on land donated by Jeptha Wade, a founder of Western Union Telegraph, and John D. Rockefeller, the Fine Arts Garden has been a favorite photography destination for wedding parties for almost a century.
2) The Cleveland Orchestra is considered perhaps the best in the U.S. and performs in two of the very best concert venues in the U.S. -- Severance Hall in University Circle and Blossom Music Center, its summer home (see posts 15-17 in the following thread).
3) Cleveland's Playhouse Square, located downtown is one of the nation's largest performing arts centers and likely the world's greatest theater restoration project, now featuring four modernized grand theaters, worth visiting as architectural attractions. Playhouse Square is the home to two leading independent theater companies -- the Cleveland Play House and Great Lakes Theater. See this dated travel article.
Both the Cleveland Museum of Art and Severance Hall are located in University Circle, connected to downtown both by the Red Line rail rapid and the 24/7 Healthline bus rapid. Playhouse Square is in its own downtown district, easily walked from the center of downtown, but also served by the Healthline.
What would you recommend as a weekend itinerary for Cleveland presumably arriving late morning on Saturday and leaving in the late afternoon Sunday?
It depends upon your interests -- sports, arts, history, architecture, etc. Are you driving or flying. Time of year also makes a difference; e.g., Lake Erie beaches in late summer; Leaf Turn at Holden Arboretum, one of the nation's best with its Emergent Tower, or Cuyahoga Valley National Park; there are three superb seasonal downtown attractions -- the observation deck at Terminal Tower, the U.S.S. Cod, and the Steamship Mather; maple sugar houses in the spring, especially at Lake Metroparks Farmpark IMO; seasonal sports attractions and stadium tours; and ethnic and other seasonal festivals. It's best to post on the Cleveland forum providing your preferences, travel plans, and exact dates of your trip.
The U.S.S. Cod is the nation's most historically accurate WW II U.S. fleet submarine exhibit (visitors use the ship's ladders to enter and leave the ship). The Steamship Mather is one of the best ASME mechanical engineering landmark attractions in the U.S.
As for comparing the 2 downtowns, as I've said: Detroit currently has the lead with nice shops and stores along Woodward Ave. What little retail downtown Cleveland has is mainly confined to the several indoor malls, like Tower City or the ancient double arcades along Euclid: the now-dubbed: 5th Street Arcades.
But it seems many posters are downplaying Cleveland's transit advantage. While one poster keeps harping on his/her horrible experience on the rapid transit -- as if this happens all the time on Cleveland's trains (the incident described is rare -- I've never come close to experiencing this in my decades of riding) or it doesn't happen elsewhere (trust me, it does; it happens so much in NYC and Chicago there are books and movies about it). Fact is that having rail lines into downtown is not only convenient to regular commuters, but they also allow downtown Cleveland to host many BIG events: such as Browns games, Film festivals, or the upcoming St. Patrick's Day, where trains are packed throughout the day and extra rail cars are added on.
In downtown Detroit, everyone must drive, except those couple thousand who live Midtown or Downtown who can walk, bus, People Mover or Trolley to the stadiums or other venues that have moved downtown in recent years. Most outer Detroit residents are suburbanites are not going to put up with the slow drag of SMART or DOT buses stopping every other corner for traffic lights or passengers.
Cleveland...safer city...not as hollowed out....has the rapid to get around on...better museums, better zoo...the metroparks...great foodie culture...better sports.
Generally, your comments are defensible, but I'm sure a Detroiter may take aim at you for better museums (Cleveland Museum of Art DIA are basically a wash, both have nice history and science museums and Detroit also has the Henry Ford, Greenfield Village, Motown Museum whereas Cleveland has the R&R Hall of Fame.). I'd call museums a wash.
Not sure why in the world you would ever think Cleveland is better for sports. Detroit has all the sports Cleveland has but also NHL hockey. I think sports are at best a wash and probably a Detroit lean.
Foodie culture, both under-perform, but both are improving.
I would give Cleveland metroparks. They are beautiful and accessible.
Cleveland should extend the downtown mall grassy bit all the way north above the train tracks and Cleveland Memorial Shoreway to Erieside Avenue and built into that should be a nice transit station and shops complex with easy elevator and escalator connection from the lakeside to downtown proper. With that, the train station should get a hell of a lot more service.
Also, I-90 east of downtown should be mostly decked over as parkspace and the ramps mostly removed as there are already a lot of ramps. Those areas where the ramps were should be given over to development and/or greenspace basically from Hamilton Avenue to E 22nd Street.
There should be a Detroit Ave-Euclid Avenue Ave subway.
Waterfont light rail lines should be extended further east for one of the services and extended southeast for the other on or along the existing rail right-of-ways.
Burke Lakefront Airport should be turned into a premier lakefront park and beach complex and with a bit of private development to help fund it.
Cleveland Memorial Shoreway for much of its more downtown-y parts should be turned more into a boulevard than a highway.
Those would be a really nice boosts for Cleveland as a weekend trip.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-12-2022 at 04:11 PM..
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