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Looking At this Census Map it looks like A SouthEast Megalopolis stretching from Atlanta to Dallas is starting to form, With Recent Growth from Huntsville (which just became Alabama's Largest City) and NorthWest Arkansas.
Starting with Atlanta and Charlotte, Huntsville along with Knoxville and Chattanooga, Connect Nashville to Atlanta, Going West Jackson (Tennessee) Connects Memphis to Nashville, and than Jonesboro (NorthEast Arkansas) and Little Rock, Connect Memphis with NorthWest Arkansas which leads to Oklahoma, Tulsa then Connects OKC to NorthWest Arkansas and then Oklahoma City Connects to Dallas.
Atlanta is closer to the size of Miami than it is to Houston or Dallas. In Texas standards, Atlanta physical city limits are tiny. While Atlanta has SWATS that brings down Atlanta average rent, Houston has a bit more than that and it is plain to see when you cover nearly 600 square miles or 350 sq miles to Atlanta's 135 sq miles. Atlanta's maybe more expensive but not that much different from the Texas two. Especially Dallas.
Atlanta and Dallas have a pretty similar COL...I was under the impression that Dallas was a little more expensive. Lot sizes and such are different between the two areas for single family homes as well.
In terms of size and population comparisons, Atlanta's city limits is closest to Arlington's size and population in comparison to the largest Texas cities.
42K is probably one of the lowest numerical increases for Atlanta in years though so growth is still growing there. Will probably pass Philly soon but wouldn't be surprised if it takes much longer for it to pass DC, especially if any more of the Baltimore suburbs get added to the DC MSA.
You also have to wonder what will happen with Rome and Gainesville in GA. Those cities have under 100,000 people and with the new census proposal, they may lose MSA status. If Atlanta gains those MSAs, it would add 300,000 to its metro. I never understood why Gainesville is separated anyway.
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Originally Posted by Joakim3
The only reason they don't meet the MSA commuting requirenments is unlike Dallas-Fort Worth, Baltimore & DC are economcially independent of each other which dictates commuting patterns. Baltimore & DC are essentially two different metro's that occupy overlapping space.
They can and often are looked as one large greater region without losing their individual identities (and righfully so).
Second I don't put emphasis on MSA either. U/A is a better measurement of city size.
Even then DC MSA + Baltimore MSA is still 9.2 million people (CSA adds 700k more people at almost 10 mil). MSA's are a joke too as you've mentioned. Madison County Virginia is 90 miles from Washington DC with 13k people and gets to join the MSA solely due to having tiny commuter populace to far exurban counties of Washington DC. Yet Howard County or anything within 25 miles of Washington are totally unrelated? Because a higher percentage of the county goes to Baltimore? Yeah ok. Lol
Making it seem like the two MSA's are unrelated at this point is wasted energy. They at this point are close to or about as related as a region as an DFW, or SF/SJ, but those regions are certainly more evenly developed, and have more uniformed cultural ties.
If just the two DC and Baltimore MSA's were ever made into one it would now in current day population rank 4th, and surpass Chicago (9.5 million) within a decade by MSA to be 3rd at that metric too.
Last edited by the resident09; 04-02-2022 at 04:16 PM..
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Originally Posted by cdw1084
I don't put too much emphasis on CSAs, especially when we're combining two metros that doesn't meet the MSA's commuting patterns standards.
This doesn't make any sense. I think people have trouble actually understanding what Combined Statistical regions are. They aren't around to be compare to other cities MSA's. Especially those with with just single poles to them. Do we think the Riverside-San Bernandino portion of SoCal should just be forgotten? Or that San Jose regional population should be discredited when talking about the SF Bay Area? Those areas don't meet the MSA commenting standards either, and are separate MSA's from the larger adjacent metro pole.
This doesn't make any sense. I think people have trouble actually understanding what Combined Statistical regions are. They aren't around to be compare to other cities MSA's. Especially those with with just single poles to them. Do we think the Riverside-San Bernandino portion of SoCal should just be forgotten? Or that San Jose regional population should be discredited when talking about the SF Bay Area? Those areas don't meet the MSA commenting standards either, and are separate MSA's from the larger adjacent metro pole.
I know that Riverside and San Jose aren't apart of the LA and SF metro areas. I also understand what a CSA is, it doesn't hold up to a MSA, which is why we use the latter (much more) when comparing areas. You're also right, I'm definitely having trouble understanding what a Combined Statistical Region is. However, I do know the meaning of a CSA. They're kinda pointless TBH...
I will end by saying that I can see SF and San Jose combining into one MSA. For Baltimore and Washington, I can't see it, those two areas doesn't feel interconnected like DFW and SF/San Jose.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdw1084
I know that Riverside and San Jose aren't apart of the LA and SF metro areas. I also understand what a CSA is, it doesn't hold up to a MSA, which is why we use the latter (much more) when comparing areas. You're also right, I'm definitely having trouble understanding what a Combined Statistical Region is. However, I do know the meaning of a CSA. They're kinda pointless TBH...
I will end by saying that I can see SF and San Jose combining into one MSA. For Baltimore and Washington, I can't see it, those two areas doesn't feel interconnected like DFW and SF/San Jose.
You know what I mean when I said "region". The purpose of measuring an CSA is for measuring economic, and labor market activity and between adjacent metros up to 15-25% of activity. In areas where you have to metros on top of one another the measurement makes sense, and does shine light on the "bigger picture" in those locations. This also means that those local MSA's stay distinct.
Combining MSA's and forming a CSA are two different things. SF and SJ could combine MSA's and still be 1 million short of the Bay Area CSA's total. Which means either direction we're looking at flawed metrics. MSA's are far from precise measurements of a "city". If that's what you're looking for to not be a "pointless metric". Otherwise an MSA is equally as pointless, because it doesn't always equate to one city's influence.
What holds Washington and Baltimore from becoming 1 MSA has nothing to do with what's "interconnected". There is more population around DC and Baltimore than the Bay Area and DFW. There are trains, bus etc. connecting them as well as a shared airport in between. The connection is fine. Baltimore and DC are just much stronger spheres of influence of 6.4 and 3 million people (literally in spherical shape) with gravitational pull towards their respective poles in the region leaving the middle area in between to be mostly mild density suburbia. If either city were weaker within it's own sphere the two would have combined already.
You know what I mean when I said "region". The purpose of measuring an CSA is for measuring economic, and labor market activity and between adjacent metros up to 15-25% of activity. In areas where you have to metros on top of one another the measurement makes sense, and does shine light on the "bigger picture" in those locations. This also means that those local MSA's stay distinct.
Combining MSA's and forming a CSA are two different things. SF and SJ could combine MSA's and still be 1 million short of the Bay Area CSA's total. Which means either direction we're looking at flawed metrics. MSA's are far from precise measurements of a "city". If that's what you're looking for to not be a "pointless metric". Otherwise an MSA is equally as pointless, because it doesn't always equate to one city's influence.
What holds Washington and Baltimore from becoming 1 MSA has nothing to do with what's "interconnected". There is more population around DC and Baltimore than the Bay Area and DFW. There are trains, bus etc. connecting them as well as a shared airport in between. The connection is fine. Baltimore and DC are just much stronger spheres of influence of 6.4 and 3 million people (literally in spherical shape) with gravitational pull towards their respective poles in the region leaving the middle area in between to be mostly mild density suburbia. If either city were weaker within it's own sphere the two would have combined already.
A MSA will always mean more than a CSA, I think most agree. See link for clarification, so until then, I will prefer to gauge MSAs...the original intent of the thread.
Also, despite your claim about more people, trains, etc...DC and Baltimore simply don't meet the definition of a MSA...so again, they are not interconnected as you think...
Also, despite your claim about more people, trains, etc...DC and Baltimore simply don't meet the definition of a MSA...so again, they are not interconnected as you think...
Yeah I think the whole point of my last paragraph you've missed. I don't vouch for the two of them being one MSA based on what the definitions are.
If the definitions were being "interconnected" and just being nearby cities DC-Baltimore and SF/SJ would all be combined MSA's. They're not. Neither one of them are. So you're basically admitting to C-D that you'll make your own designations as to what equates to an MSA or CSA, when we already have this description on paper. MSA's are no more relevant than any other population metric out there. 0% more relevant. But that's your prerogative to go with your fave. Any of us can just as easily dismiss the MSA's for whatever other metrics we prefer too (UA etc.).
Yeah I think the whole point of my last paragraph you've missed. I don't vouch for the two of them being one MSA based on what the definitions are.
If the definitions were being "interconnected" and just being nearby cities DC-Baltimore and SF/SJ would all be combined MSA's. They're not. Neither one of them are. So you're basically admitting to C-D that you'll make your own designations as to what equates to an MSA or CSA, when we already have this description on paper. MSA's are no more relevant than any other population metric out there. 0% more relevant. But that's your prerogative to go with your fave. Any of us can just as easily dismiss the MSA's for whatever other metrics we prefer too (UA etc.).
The only thing that I've admitted to City-Data is the fact that I judge an area based on MSA vs CSA. I've also admitted that SF/San Francisco and DFW feels more interconnected than Washington and Baltimore. I am the original OP of this thread who started this thread as "Census 2021 MSA Estimates." If I recall, you brought the CSAs into the thread. Lastly, I am going to dismiss CSAs because that measure have/had nothing to do with the thread from the beginning.
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