Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Was the "adult" population density really that much higher than what we can achieve today? Children don't create downtown vibrancy, so they are irrelevant to this discussion. I don't know if there were really more adults living in cities in the 1910-1930s than we can achieve today. What makes you say that?
You can make an argument that we won't return to that level of vibrancy because shopping isn't done downtown, but the vibrancy isn't really what I am focused on with this thread. I am talking about downtown's becoming neighborhoods where tons of people live and play. That shift could be coming I think with a much higher density than anywhere else in cities which hasn't been the case for most cities because of the prevalence of office space.
I disagree.
Where I live, which is downtown, there are several schools. A mix of public and private elementary and high schools.
The kids are certainly part of the vibrancy. They walk to school, frequent local corner stores, and make enough noise on their breaks as all kids do.
Without amenities for kids, parents wouldn't be attracted to downtown. Many teachers choose to live near the school they teach at as well.
The playgrounds and parks are numerous, which also plays a huge role since downtown few, have a backyard.
In other words, the kids are really an important part of the fabric of a vibrant and safer downtown.
A few I have been to possibly already have (obviously was not alive then so can't reasonably compare), but they are much more related to tourism than ever before and were minimally impacted by urban renewal and interstate construction. But sidewalks do seem to always be busting at the seams whenever I go including places such as:
Charleston, SC
Asheville, NC
Savannah, GA
St. Augustine, FL
Frederick, MD
Maybe Greenville, SC
And quite possibly few college towns as well I have been to such as:
Athens, GA
Boulder, CO
Charlottesville, VA
Cambridge, MA
Ann Arbor, MI
Chapel Hill, NC
One thing is most of these places had streetcars a hundred years ago which definitely added to the bustling streets and vibrancy.
But unfortunately major cities of the US were so completely wrecked by urban renewal, disinvestment, suburban sprawl, dismantling of the streetcars and interurbans, white flight, McMansionization, etc, I do not see them coming back to where they were. Perhaps towards the end of the century who knows. Boston, Miami, and Seattle seem to be doing the best overall. Downtowns I will say are doing better by and large than when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s.
Some of the cities you listed have an ok amount of "bustling" downtown--at certain times of the day.
Out of the bunch, I'd say Charleston, SC is the most consistently busy, with tons of tourists, throughout the entire day.
For bigger cities, I would add to your list New Orleans, Nashville and Austin. Tourism helps these cities with consistent downtown foot traffic, but all 3 have crowds most cities would drool over, if they had anything close to theirs, downtown.
Some of the cities you listed have an ok amount of "bustling" downtown--at certain times of the day.
Out of the bunch, I'd say Charleston, SC is the most consistently busy, with tons of tourists, throughout the entire day.
For bigger cities, I would add to your list New Orleans, Nashville and Austin. Tourism helps these cities with consistent downtown foot traffic, but all 3 have crowds most cities would drool over, if they had anything close to theirs, downtown.
Thank you! I was just in New Orleans earlier this year and it completely slipped my mind for some reason, but yes the foot traffic there was absolutely astounding as well and busy at all times of day. It has been about 11 years since I have been to Nashville and haven't been to Austin yet, will need to check those areas here soon!
The big thing that will make most downtowns the places they were in the 20s, IMO, is a robust system of mass transit.
Cities that already have this, like NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, San Fran, still have neighborhoods downtown, or pretty close to downtown, that are vibrant and dense, with housing, retail, schools, entertainment, and offices all in close proximity to each other. And mass transit doesn't have to be heavy rail systems either. Light rail systems, trolleys, or busses that are safe and move people regularly at all hours would work too. (Taxis/Uber/Lyft can fill out the gaps.) But since WW II and suburbanization, I don't think the U.S. is heading this way. For now, the car still rules.
The other thing that's needed is a lots of well-designed multi-family housing. Conventional wisdom is the most Americans with families don't want to live in apartments, and barely want to live in row houses. But look at the places where that housing is being built. In suburban-type areas far from the city center. Many cities have made it VERY difficult to build such housing close to where people might actually want to be. Of course the more housing is built, the greater demand for services and amenities near by, and then the NIMBY crowd stupidly rebels, not realizing that their properties become more, not less valuable, the greater the number of (middle-class) people live there. Zoning has been relaxed in some places, but like cars, for now the ideal of the single-family home still rules.
None. Those downtowns were vibrant because that's where all the retail and shopping was and job centers. Most people could not afford a car. So going downtown to a department store and trendy meal was an event where you had to put on your Sunday best, and take transit downtown. There was no hop in the car and go to Kohls in your PJ'S and flip flops to the nearby strip mall.
None. Those downtowns were vibrant because that's where all the retail and shopping was and job centers. Most people could not afford a car. So going downtown to a department store and trendy meal was an event where you had to put on your Sunday best, and take transit downtown. There was no hop in the car and go to Kohls in your PJ'S and flip flops to the nearby strip mall.
LOL-yep, this is pretty spot-on.
Most of the population today prefers the suburbs.
Lower density "cul-de-sac living," where single family homes, a yard, and 2 or 3 cars in the driveway rule. A shopping strip mall is closeby, with a grocery store, a few fast food or fast casual restaurants, and churches and schools not far away.
A trip into the "big city" happens only with sporting events, friends in town, or looking for that specialty food or item that can't be found in the suburbs.
That's why the highways in most metro areas are bumper to bumper and the rails/public transit sit mostly empty. Downtowns are ghost towns except for a few "main strips," and the primary city in a metro area is losing population.
There are some outliers to this--of course. But overall, that's the snapshot of most folks in the US today.
Most downtowns around America were mixed-use vibrant bustling neighborhoods in the 1920s. Photos of their streets showed bustling street scenes with a mixture of office, retail, and housing. Many people have predicted the downfall of downtown's because of WFH, but I think that prediction lacks vision. If office buildings in downtowns around America convert to residential space, downtowns will become neighborhoods again and come alive especially at night and weekends when most people experience them anyway. The highest density mixed-use neighborhoods in America are the most vibrant so adding tens of thousands of new residents to downtowns will create a great mix of office workers, residents, and tourists' day and night.
Which downtowns are already similar to their 1910-1930 version of themselves, and which downtowns could turn back into that version of themselves in the future?
I have added street scenes from cities all over America below:
No never, and it really really sucks to think about but it’s the truth. We can always improve our vibrancy though but I don’t think the goal of reaching back to the 1920s is realistic.
The only thing I could even think that could improve a little bit over the 1920s are certain waterfront areas and such where back then a lot of them just tended to be filled with warehouses and factories, though even then they would’ve been filled with people moving about, but it was more a work environment. Also, if we could shut down certain streets to traffic, that could have a large impact as well as I’ve personally seen. Though it depends on the area of course.
Was the "adult" population density really that much higher than what we can achieve today? Children don't create downtown vibrancy, so they are irrelevant to this discussion. I don't know if there were really more adults living in cities in the 1910-1930s than we can achieve today. What makes you say that?
You can make an argument that we won't return to that level of vibrancy because shopping isn't done downtown, but the vibrancy isn't really what I am focused on with this thread. I am talking about downtown's becoming neighborhoods where tons of people live and play. That shift could be coming I think with a much higher density than anywhere else in cities which hasn't been the case for most cities because of the prevalence of office space.
Children absolutely like go outside? And do things?
They might walk to the stir and buy a candy bar not 4 bags of groceries but they go around town like everyone else. (And in the 1920s what we call kids these days had jobs)
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
