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While I didn’t vote on this poll (Toronto by a mile or in a kilometer as Canadians might say), Miami has proposed to build the North extension, therefore expanding it’s rapid transit system (https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-da...-rock-stadium/).
Once again, Miami is no Toronto, or NYC & Chicago, but it does have an expanding commuter rail system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Ra...s_and_upgrades) and Brightline, which is supposed to be HSR intercity transit to Orlando, Tampa, and Jacksonville, something Canada doesn’t have.
Yeah I wouldn't hold my breath when Miami proposes anything transit related. I've been hearing about expansions since 1999, nothing has happened. And of course, they'll be (if it even happens) extending their transit system with an inefficient model with limited capacity, sounds about right.
Toronto is just in a different league and has so many projects U/C currently and proposed. It makes sense given Canadian cities are more transit oriented than their American counterparts, but this is also a city that is essentially a new megacity, so they need more transit in general. It's not perfect of course, but you really cannot compare Miami and Toronto transit wise.
Brightline doesn't quite reach the 125 mph threshold for membership in the HSR club, but at 110 tops, it does fall into the category "higher-speed rail".
According to this article (https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/b...20and%20Tampa.), Brightline is supposed to go as high as 150 between Orlando and West Palm Beach. Only time the Brightline operates slower is up to 80 mph between West Palm Beach and Miami and much of that has a lot to do with the Brightline sharing trackage with Tri Rail between that route. It’s still a mainly HSR route!
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
As for intercity rail service, period, however, Canada does have that, and Toronto sits in the middle of VIA Rail Canada's busiest route, its answer to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, extending from Windsor to Québec City.
Between Quebec City and Windsor, there’s rail service, but it’s not HSR. The only HSR services that I know of in NA are the Acela service between Boston and DC and the forthcoming Brightline service between Orlando and Miami, which will operate early next year. That’s why I said Canada doesn’t have HSR because it doesn’t provide that service, which is a shame considering two of Canada’s largest cities (Toronto and Montreal) are within that corridor.
Yeah I wouldn't hold my breath when Miami proposes anything transit related. I've been hearing about expansions since 1999, nothing has happened. And of course, they'll be (if it even happens) extending their transit system with an inefficient model with limited capacity, sounds about right.
Toronto is just in a different league and has so many projects U/C currently and proposed. It makes sense given Canadian cities are more transit oriented than their American counterparts, but this is also a city that is essentially a new megacity, so they need more transit in general. It's not perfect of course, but you really cannot compare Miami and Toronto transit wise.
My only take on this is that Miami finally follows up on the North extension, as it’s a vital corridor in dire need of mass transit. There have been expansions that have been proposed since then, but the expansion to Hard Rock makes the most sense thus far and all that’s needed is state and federal funding.
Toronto by itself is a much bigger city than Miami and not only that, but it’s the biggest city in C añada while Miami is the 44th largest city in America but the anchor of the 9th largest MSA in the US.Of course Miami’s and Toronto’s mass transit systems are going to be different, with Miami need IG a relatively smaller mass transit system but a more expansive commuter rail in comparison to Toronto. If Miami had 200 sq. mi. of land, than it would need a much bigger mass transit system comparable to Toronto and Chicago than the one it currently has.
My only take on this is that Miami finally follows up on the North extension, as it’s a vital corridor in dire need of mass transit. There have been expansions that have been proposed since then, but the expansion to Hard Rock makes the most sense thus far and all that’s needed is state and federal funding.
Toronto by itself is a much bigger city than Miami and not only that, but it’s the biggest city in C añada while Miami is the 44th largest city in America but the anchor of the 9th largest MSA in the US.Of course Miami’s and Toronto’s mass transit systems are going to be different, with Miami need IG a relatively smaller mass transit system but a more expansive commuter rail in comparison to Toronto. If Miami had 200 sq. mi. of land, than it would need a much bigger mass transit system comparable to Toronto and Chicago than the one it currently has.
Toronto city proper is much larger than Miami city proper, but that's really just because of the legal boundaries as Toronto merged with neighboring municipalities in 1998. In actual real physical urban area, since there is no border check or wall between say Miami proper and Coral Gables, the two are of fairly similar urban area and population sizes.
According to this article (https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/b...20and%20Tampa.), Brightline is supposed to go as high as 150 between Orlando and West Palm Beach. Only time the Brightline operates slower is up to 80 mph between West Palm Beach and Miami and much of that has a lot to do with the Brightline sharing trackage with Tri Rail between that route. It’s still a mainly HSR route!
Not yet. That Miami New Times article uses the future tense to describe those speeds. I got the 110 mph figure through a simple Google search on "top speed of brightline". That, I presume, describes the line's current operating characteristics — and indeed, that New Times story even uses the same phrase I used to describe the line as it now operates: "higher-speed train." Here's the passage in question for those who didn't click the link:
Quote:
With the intercity route's expansion to Orlando and then Tampa, Brightline’s senior vice president of corporate development, Christine Kefauver, recently told various news outlets that the higher-speed train will reach speeds up to 125 mph between West Palm Beach and Orlando, and up to 150 mph between Orlando and Tampa.
(emphasis added)
And the article goes on to note that as the line is currently constructed, that would make "America's deadliest train per mile" (used in an Associated Press story linked from this one) even deadlier.
The problem is that the line has lots of grade crossings. In order for Amtrak to get the NEC to the point where it could safely operate trains at 125 mph, it eliminated all grade crossings on the line. The article even quotes some rail safety advocates who argue that Brightline trains should slow to 10 mph in the vicinity of grade crossings so that engineers will have time to stop the train before it hits a vehicle stuck on the tracks.
That's patently absurd. But if Brightline wants to increase speeds without increasing the carnage, those grade crossings will have to go just as they did along the NEC.
Now, the article mentions "the region's 180 grade crossings," and I presume it's talking about south of West Palm. Maybe there are no grade crossings north of there, and if so, well then, full speed ahead. But if there are some, then taking the trains above 110 mph does pose a safety risk Brightline will have to work to mitigate. (There's also a risk even at the 79 mph speed Federal law mandates as the top limit for trains without automatic train control, but if the crossings are far enough apart and the gates (presumably full quads) come down far enough in advance, that might be good enough to bring the 110-mph trains currently running into the safe zone.)
Quote:
Between Quebec City and Windsor, there’s rail service, but it’s not HSR. The only HSR services that I know of in NA are the Acela service between Boston and DC and the forthcoming Brightline service between Orlando and Miami, which will operate early next year. That’s why I said Canada doesn’t have HSR because it doesn’t provide that service, which is a shame considering two of Canada’s largest cities (Toronto and Montreal) are within that corridor.
I didn't say that the Via line was HSR. However, I interpreted the prior comment as saying that it didn't have intercity train service at all. That was why I commented as I did. (Though I can see how someone might interpret my referring to the Québec City-Windsor corridor as "Canada's answer to the NEC" as saying it was HSR. I had meant to refer only to the traffic it carried relative to the rest of the VIA network.)
Last edited by MarketStEl; 11-27-2022 at 05:54 PM..
Toronto city proper is much larger than Miami city proper, but that's really just because of the legal boundaries as Toronto merged with neighboring municipalities in 1998. In actual real physical urban area, since there is no border check or wall between say Miami proper and Coral Gables, the two are of fairly similar urban area and population sizes.
If we are talking a contiguous built up urban area, there is about a 700K difference between the two with T.O at 6.8m and Miami at 6.1m That said, TO's built up urban area is significantly more compact and dense. I'm not sure how much different the populations would be if we went to CSA and MSA levels, although I think using those metrics, the population of Toronto MSA/CSA would pull even further ahead. I also think Miami would struggle to proportionally fit 2.8 million people in 243 sq miles as Toronto does regardless of boundaries.
That all said, given T.O's denser and more compact city/urban area metrics, higher transit usage and a more developed transit infrastructure, makes more sense to me.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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…this….plus Toronto (founded 1793) had a 103 year head start on Miami (founded 1896).
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
If we are talking a contiguous built up urban area, there is about a 700K difference between the two with T.O at 6.8m and Miami at 6.1m That said, TO's built up urban area is significantly more compact and dense. I'm not sure how much different the populations would be if we went to CSA and MSA levels, although I think using those metrics, the population of Toronto MSA/CSA would pull even further ahead. I also think Miami would struggle to proportionally fit 2.8 million people in 243 sq miles as Toronto does regardless of boundaries.
That all said, given T.O's denser and more compact city/urban area metrics, higher transit usage and a more developed transit infrastructure, makes more sense to me.
Not yet. That Miami New Times article uses the future tense to describe those speeds. I got the 110 mph figure through a simple Google search on "top speed of brightline". That, I presume, describes the line's current operating characteristics — and indeed, that New Times story even uses the same phrase I used to describe the line as it now operates: "higher-speed train." Here's the passage in question for those who didn't click the link:
(emphasis added)
And the article goes on to note that as the line is currently constructed, that would make "America's deadliest train per mile" (used in an Associated Press story linked from this one) even deadlier.
The problem is that the line has lots of grade crossings. In order for Amtrak to get the NEC to the point where it could safely operate trains at 125 mph, it eliminated all grade crossings on the line. The article even quotes some rail safety advocates who argue that Brightline trains should slow to 10 mph in the vicinity of grade crossings so that engineers will have time to stop the train before it hits a vehicle stuck on the tracks.
That's patently absurd. But if Brightline wants to increase speeds without increasing the carnage, those grade crossings will have to go just as they did along the NEC.
Now, the article mentions "the region's 180 grade crossings," and I presume it's talking about south of West Palm. Maybe there are no grade crossings north of there, and if so, well then, full speed ahead. But if there are some, then taking the trains above 110 mph does pose a safety risk Brightline will have to work to mitigate. (There's also a risk even at the 79 mph speed Federal law mandates as the top limit for trains without automatic train control, but if the crossings are far enough apart and the gates (presumably full quads) come down far enough in advance, that might be good enough to bring the 110-mph trains currently running into the safe zone.)
I didn't say that the Via line was HSR. However, I interpreted the prior comment as saying that it didn't have intercity train service at all. That was why I commented as I did. (Though I can see how someone might interpret my referring to the Québec City-Windsor corridor as "Canada's answer to the NEC" as saying it was HSR. I had meant to refer only to the traffic it carried relative to the rest of the VIA network.)
Floridians eventually have to adapt towards having HSR and that means stopping when the RR gates are down. Too many of them take the chance of going around the closed gates and risking their lives with a train traveling at 110-150 mph. It’s their risk and their lives, and last time I checked, the train always wins at the end of the collision.
If I was constructing the Brightline, then I’d have to elevate it as opposed to constructing it at-grade, but the southern portion of FL sits on a water table and due to cost, the Brightline developers decided to place the tracks at-grade than elevate it. The Brightline also follows the old FEC line from Jacksonville to Miami, and as always, the old FEC was at-grade.
The only way that Brightline can be safer is if motorists simply follow the law and wait until the closed RR gates reopen to traffic again. It’s not that hard! I’m pretty sure that Brightline has considered all the safety measures and have done everything to ensure that Brightline is much safer for both commuters and motorists alike!
Those at grade crossings will have to be eliminated at one point or another, be it by elevating the tracks or by elevating the roads. As it currently stands, it’s too big of a risk, and there are FAR too many crossings in a very short span. I was recently at a NJT station waiting for a train, when a Acela train zoomed through the station, and let me tell you… No train traveling at that speed should be crossing heavily-trafficked city streets.
Taxpayers will eventually have to foot the bill. If I lived in SFL, that’s one tax hike I’d be fine with.
…this….plus Toronto (founded 1793) had a 103 year head start on Miami (founded 1896).
Toronto is much older than Miami but both cities have about the same amount of people in their metro area, with Toronto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ions_in_Canada) having slightly more people than Miami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrop...#United_States). That’s not bad for a city that’s been founded since 1896. Also, I believe that Miami, although smaller, is much more denser as a city (Miami - 12,284.47/sq mi; Toronto - 11,468/sq mi).
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