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I know the ones in the Bay (SF, SJ, Santa Clara, Santa Rosa, San Ramon, San Rafael, San Mateo, San Carlos off the top of my head) and on the central coast (Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo). When I hear Santa Clarita or San Clemente though, I have no idea where that is. Is there a San Tomas city? I know there's a San Tomas Expressway... Is there a San Gabriel city like the San Gabriel Mountains? Ugh
I assumed San Ignacio, CA from Kurt Vonnegut's Bluebeard was a real place until I looked it up.
Oakland County is very nice. Birmingham, Bloomfield, Farmington, Novi, Rochester.
But no particular standouts here, less maybe Birmingham. Very similar to much of legacy northern suburbia, without the mega affluence. To me, not a real “sense of place”.
If anything, the Grosse Pointes are the string of suburbs I’d point to for a “wow” factor. Even still, they haven’t seen the type of reinvestment needed to match up with sister suburbs in flourishing metros. But man are they gorgeous.
I think that one problem here is that people forget that most people outside a given metro area know little about its suburbs. What they know is the core city.
If you mentioned the first or last of the cities or townships I boldfaced above to a non-Michigander, they would assume you were talking about a city in Alabama or one in New York State unless you said it was in Michigan. And after that, they would probably still ask "Where's that?"
At which point the resident of either would most likely reply, "It's near (or outside) Detroit."
How many of you reading this know about Overland Park? It was the home of Sprint Corporation before T-Mobile swallowed it up. It's now the second-largest city in Kansas. Yet I'll bet most of you would ask the "where's that?" question to someone who told you that was where they were from.
And they'd probably respond, "It's a suburb of Kansas City."
A former Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia economist did a study in 2006 of the economic performance of suburbs of strong cities and those of weak ones and found that there was a strong correlation between the state of the central city and the performance of the suburb. The weaker the city, the worse the suburb performed, and the stronger the city, the stronger its suburbs were.
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According to my grandfather (born in 1939, and spent most of his life in Pennsylvania/New Jersey but has lived and traveled all over the country):
Statewide level (Pennsylvania)
"Probably I would go over to Bucks County, Pennsylvania having gained the most prominence. The people who have gained residence there have employment in Philadelphia, New Jersey, and even as far New York. The wealth of the county is underestimated.
Lost influence: probably Shamokin / Scranton + Wilkes-Barre Pennsylvania (coal region). They have a diminished profile. It was a place to really go, and a major energy player on the national stage at one time. That region has lost so much of its primary economic power and authority due to losing the coal industry. It is nothing like what it used to be.
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Location: Harrisburg, PA
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I asked my grandfather (born in 1939, and spent most of his life in Pennsylvania/New Jersey but has lived and traveled all over the country), his words, not mine:
National level
Lost relevance:
"The Middle states and cities have lost the most influence. So: Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans, Detroit, Louisville, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, any city along the Mississippi River first and foremost, the Great Lakes, and really the whole Middle States region have declined in prominence the most. Those cities don't nearly have the infuence or wealth that they once had. Agriculture and manufacturing have declined there.
I went out to Pittsburgh in the mid 1950's, there was booming industry - the air was all dirty and smoggy from all the factories and mills running full bore, big coal trucks being unloaded and barges/ tugs. All that shipping and freight that was headed out to the Mississippi River. They don't do that any more. All that shipping has been taken over by airplanes and tractor trailers.
The Great Lakes region has also lost an awful lot of influence in terms of their wealth and status. Used to have these huge barges leading down to the river 6,8,10,12 barges being pulled by tugs down to the Mississippi River.
Cleveland wasn't as dependent on the Mississippi River as Pittsburgh was. So they didn't get hit as hard as Pittsburgh did.
Even Detroit has lost influence.
Baltimore was never anything special. It was poor 100 years ago and was always overlooked due to its location near New York, Washington DC, Philadelphia, etc. It was always treated like an unloved stepchild of a city.
Cincinnati also never anything special - it was a stop along the way. My impression was that Cincinnati was never much of a big deal. The vaudaville people skipped Cincinnati along their way out west because there was no money there.
New Orleans was a big a port for shipping. Not only did they get all the stuff from the Mississippi. But they also had a bunch of ships coming from the south the northeast. That has really gone downhill and it is no longer as much of a major player that it once was. New Orleans is really nowhere near as important as it once was.
Used to go to Chicago when I was in the Navy on leave. All the sailors would get into trouble there. Today Chicago is very different from what it once was. It would be worse to stay out of trouble there today.
Grown the most:
Dallas - Fort Worth first of all, as well as Houston have both expanded greatly. Both were just cow towns back when I was a kid. You never really heard about them. They have really taken advantage of the oil/gas and location near the coast. Both have become two of the wealthiest places in the country.
Another area that is coming alive is Florida - Miami, Tampa Bay, Orlando. The whole Atlantic coast of Florida. That area is moving well. Lot of population growth. Tons of industrial growth and international travel. Miami is really picking up more and more steam as time goes on. You wouldn't hear about them a whole lot (when I was a kid). Just was a place old people went. Jacksonville was booming, but not so much anymore, though.
Atlanta has grown in influence in my lifetime but they have really overdone it, that whole area absolutely cannot really grow any larger. It has expanded too much and has become way too big for its britches now."
That is all of my grandfather's input, as best I could summarize it.
While downtown Pittsburgh's daytime office-worker environment is stronger than its Cleveland counterpart, likely leading to the fact that downtown retail is stronger in Pittsburgh -- admittedly Cleveland downtown retail sucks right now but improvements may be on the way (hopefully Sherwin-Williams' new highrise HQ, currently rising, will help turn things around -- residentially, downtown Cleveland kicks Pittsburgh's butt, and it's not even close. Office building adaptive reuse has been off the chain in downtown Cleveland and ground-up new apartment mid and highrise apartment buildings are going up left & right downtown, as well as in uber-hot, just across the river Ohio City. It's to the point where downtown Cleveland very much feels like a 15-hour residential neighborhood -- joggers, dog walkers, robust grocery shopping, and restaurants all over the place, whereby downtown Pittsburgh is nowhere close to this.
I'm not sure that this is a fair comparison. Pittsburgh's downtown is only 0.64 square miles. Cleveland's is 3 square miles. You would have to combine the 5 closest neighborhoods to downtown Pittsburgh together in order to get a similar land area (Strip District, Uptown, Station Square, North shore, North side, etc.).
The Strip District in particular has been absolutely booming in new residential construction over the last 5+ years while downtown itself has been accelerating in office to residential conversions since at least 2020. The Strip also has the best concentration of ethic markets and grocery shopping in the entire metro and restaurants are of course all over the place throughout these 5+ "downtown" neighborhoods. When there's nice weather the river trails are loaded daily with joggers, dog walkers, bikers and everything in between. So I have to completely disagree with your assessment that "Downtown Pittsburgh is nowhere close to this". The only way you might think this if you haven't been to Pittsburgh in the last 5 years.
Growth and sprawl has continued in most of Detroit's suburbs along with some reinvestment in the city limits.
Oakland County, MI is one of the nicer suburban areas in the country to this day and has never seen any population decline.
But even Oakland County MI isn't what it was when it comes to wealth at least in terms of median income. Used to be among the top in the country, now not even in Top 100 counties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g500
I asked my grandfather (born in 1939, and spent most of his life in Pennsylvania/New Jersey but has lived and traveled all over the country), his words, not mine:
National level
Lost relevance:
"The Middle states and cities have lost the most influence. So: Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans, Detroit, Louisville, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, any city along the Mississippi River first and foremost, the Great Lakes, and really the whole Middle States region have declined in prominence the most. Those cities don't nearly have the infuence or wealth that they once had. Agriculture and manufacturing have declined there.
I went out to Pittsburgh in the mid 1950's, there was booming industry - the air was all dirty and smoggy from all the factories and mills running full bore, big coal trucks being unloaded and barges/ tugs. All that shipping and freight that was headed out to the Mississippi River. They don't do that any more. All that shipping has been taken over by airplanes and tractor trailers.
The Great Lakes region has also lost an awful lot of influence in terms of their wealth and status. Used to have these huge barges leading down to the river 6,8,10,12 barges being pulled by tugs down to the Mississippi River.
Cleveland wasn't as dependent on the Mississippi River as Pittsburgh was. So they didn't get hit as hard as Pittsburgh did.
Even Detroit has lost influence.
Baltimore was never anything special. It was poor 100 years ago and was always overlooked due to its location near New York, Washington DC, Philadelphia, etc. It was always treated like an unloved stepchild of a city.
Cincinnati also never anything special - it was a stop along the way. My impression was that Cincinnati was never much of a big deal. The vaudaville people skipped Cincinnati along their way out west because there was no money there.
New Orleans was a big a port for shipping. Not only did they get all the stuff from the Mississippi. But they also had a bunch of ships coming from the south the northeast. That has really gone downhill and it is no longer as much of a major player that it once was. New Orleans is really nowhere near as important as it once was.
Used to go to Chicago when I was in the Navy on leave. All the sailors would get into trouble there. Today Chicago is very different from what it once was. It would be worse to stay out of trouble there today.
Grown the most:
Dallas - Fort Worth first of all, as well as Houston have both expanded greatly. Both were just cow towns back when I was a kid. You never really heard about them. They have really taken advantage of the oil/gas and location near the coast. Both have become two of the wealthiest places in the country.
Another area that is coming alive is Florida - Miami, Tampa Bay, Orlando. The whole Atlantic coast of Florida. That area is moving well. Lot of population growth. Tons of industrial growth and international travel. Miami is really picking up more and more steam as time goes on. You wouldn't hear about them a whole lot (when I was a kid). Just was a place old people went. Jacksonville was booming, but not so much anymore, though.
Atlanta has grown in influence in my lifetime but they have really overdone it, that whole area absolutely cannot really grow any larger. It has expanded too much and has become way too big for its britches now."
That is all of my grandfather's input, as best I could summarize it.
For Baltimore - it was always somewhat blue-collar, but its influence was definitely larger at least in Maryland up until 1970s or so. DC then exploded in growth while Baltimore keep going down.
For Cincinnati - its heyday was like in 1940s or so. It simply decline before the other Midwestern industrial cities did (circa 1960s/70s).
For NOLA - Port of South Louisiana is still a very large port for grains shipment - just that the port itself is very spread out all along Mississippi between NOLA and Baton Rouge. Port of New Orleans itself is definitely nowhere as big.
Answers can vary depending on age. Depending on how old you are you may have seen cities fade, return, and fade again. If you’re young, then it probably been only one direction for most cities.
For my age (older Gen X), I’d say that LA has definitely faded. It’s still one of the top few major cities but not a destination that many people aside from creatives aspire to live. Detroit has also faded big time.
Cities that have greatly increased in stature in my lifetime: San Jose CA (tech), Asheville NC (hipsters), Portland OR (tech AND hipsters!). Also Dallas, specifically because of the growth there of the Black middle-class and Charlotte (Black middle-class plus big finance sector).
Biggest decline in stature of a city I visited has been Buffalo and Baltimore — the former known for losing industry and Superbowls, the latter for widespread crime and poverty.
I know numerous people with finance degrees, who have chosen Chicago within the last few years. All have stayed there and are living a pretty nice life. Not a one has been a victim of crime. Chicago is still an Alpha city, and ranked in the top 3 or 4 in the US.
Absolutely agree that Chicago is still one of the Big Three: NYC, Chicago, and Los Angeles.
I really never thought much about Seattle or Portland as a child, teen or young adult. Or the Pacific North West in general. Now they are more prominent, but still not Alpha cities.
We are originally from the NYC metro area, and we are looking for a house in the Cleveland inner-ring suburbs. There are multiple offers on every house, and nothing stays on the market for more than a week. We have been looking for almost a year! Many of the House Hunters are either first-time homeowners from the East Coast who want good schools, art, music, and Northern Style culture and food.
Cleveland is rebounding from its rust belt status. It's vibrant and growing.
As a child, no NYC area people would consider moving "Upstate". It was a place to attend college or visit the mountains and lakes. Now, Buffalo is getting a lot of attention. A beautiful, cultured city with pretty and unique older neighborhoods, that was graced with the Frederick Olmstead touch.
I asked my grandfather (born in 1939, and spent most of his life in Pennsylvania/New Jersey but has lived and traveled all over the country), his words, not mine:
National level
Lost relevance:
"The Middle states and cities have lost the most influence. So: Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans, Detroit, Louisville, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, any city along the Mississippi River first and foremost, the Great Lakes, and really the whole Middle States region have declined in prominence the most. Those cities don't nearly have the infuence or wealth that they once had. Agriculture and manufacturing have declined there.
I went out to Pittsburgh in the mid 1950's, there was booming industry - the air was all dirty and smoggy from all the factories and mills running full bore, big coal trucks being unloaded and barges/ tugs. All that shipping and freight that was headed out to the Mississippi River. They don't do that any more. All that shipping has been taken over by airplanes and tractor trailers.
The Great Lakes region has also lost an awful lot of influence in terms of their wealth and status. Used to have these huge barges leading down to the river 6,8,10,12 barges being pulled by tugs down to the Mississippi River.
Cleveland wasn't as dependent on the Mississippi River as Pittsburgh was. So they didn't get hit as hard as Pittsburgh did.
Even Detroit has lost influence.
Baltimore was never anything special. It was poor 100 years ago and was always overlooked due to its location near New York, Washington DC, Philadelphia, etc. It was always treated like an unloved stepchild of a city.
Cincinnati also never anything special - it was a stop along the way. My impression was that Cincinnati was never much of a big deal. The vaudaville people skipped Cincinnati along their way out west because there was no money there.
New Orleans was a big a port for shipping. Not only did they get all the stuff from the Mississippi. But they also had a bunch of ships coming from the south the northeast. That has really gone downhill and it is no longer as much of a major player that it once was. New Orleans is really nowhere near as important as it once was.
Used to go to Chicago when I was in the Navy on leave. All the sailors would get into trouble there. Today Chicago is very different from what it once was. It would be worse to stay out of trouble there today.
Grown the most:
Dallas - Fort Worth first of all, as well as Houston have both expanded greatly. Both were just cow towns back when I was a kid. You never really heard about them. They have really taken advantage of the oil/gas and location near the coast. Both have become two of the wealthiest places in the country.
Another area that is coming alive is Florida - Miami, Tampa Bay, Orlando. The whole Atlantic coast of Florida. That area is moving well. Lot of population growth. Tons of industrial growth and international travel. Miami is really picking up more and more steam as time goes on. You wouldn't hear about them a whole lot (when I was a kid). Just was a place old people went. Jacksonville was booming, but not so much anymore, though.
Atlanta has grown in influence in my lifetime but they have really overdone it, that whole area absolutely cannot really grow any larger. It has expanded too much and has become way too big for its britches now."
That is all of my grandfather's input, as best I could summarize it.
Baltimore was more of a major city than D.C. until the 70's.
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