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So I have to say, I do think that Chicago does have the best and most beautiful downtown between the U.S and Canada. The amount of hate the city gets is unfair, it's truly a beautiful city, clean and like others said, a bargain. My wife and I are actually thinking of possibly moving there or buying property there... we'll see how things go in the short term.
On another note, something that I love about downtown Montreal is the entertainment district. I shared it a while back on the Montreal forum, but we smashed a record this summer in terms of attendance at summer festivals this year, with ~5 million people attending 30 festivals. Jazz fest is usually 2M, JFL about 1.2M and Francos was 400,000 this year. Year round festivals attendance for 2023 currently sits at 6 million. I can't think of any other cities on the planet that comes close to this.
More festivals will be added and I do hope they continue to expand winter offerings and more festivals in the Spring/Fall. So far, the largest festival outside the summer season is Montreal en Lumiere/Nuit Blanche, which has about a combined 1M visitors over 10 days, half being on Nuit Blanche.
Downtown Montreal seems to be all over the place though, to be honest. The return to office initiatives are not really working, so our daytime population is not close to pre-pandemic levels. It still hovers between 500,000 on a bad day to 750-800K on a good day, according to estimates I got from the city. St. Catherine street has seen growth surpassing pre-pandemic levels, vacancy rates on the street are plummeting, with the renovated areas inching close to full vacancy. This summer, we smashed records in almost every regard, but I believe this is just a seasonal thing. Opening of the REM has slowly allowed for more people to come downtown too, but on the flip-side, endless (and the worst coordinated) construction is impacting commuters coming downtown, along with the city now charging for street side parking until 11pm.
Most free festivals have absolutely bull attendance figures but I think Dallas or Minneapolis probably come close considering State fairs regularly have 2-3 million in attendance. So throw in a the run of the mill 2-400k events you get somewhere in that Montreal number.
Most free festivals have absolutely bull attendance figures but I think Dallas or Minneapolis probably come close considering State fairs regularly have 2-3 million in attendance. So throw in a the run of the mill 2-400k events you get somewhere in that Montreal number.
I can tell you that working with these promoters before, estimates are in line and they're even certified by Guinness World Records (JFL, JF for example). That picture I posted, that lot alone can hold about 100-120,000 at most, maybe even more and does not include the multiple side stages.
State fairs, those are different and I don't think any are held downtown (the ones you mentioned). Plus those last about a month, vs festivals that are no more than 10 days.
I can tell you that working with these promoters before, estimates are in line and they're even certified by Guinness World Records (JFL, JF for example). That picture I posted, that lot alone can hold about 100-120,000 at most, maybe even more and does not include the multiple side stages.
State fairs, those are different and I don't think any are held downtown (the ones you mentioned). Plus those last about a month, vs festivals that are no more than 10 days.
The main reason they’re bull crap is that open air free concerts downtown have a propensity to have a very loose attendance definitions. Since people who are practically passerby’s are in fact people who “were there”. Wiki says ~15% are “tourists” so I’d bet eveb Lollopolooza gets more visitors. They’re counting people who are just downtown as attendees.
Also the Texas State fair is not far off from Downtown Dallas. Especially considering the spread of venues in the jazz fest.
The municipal government of Montreal announced a $1.8B 10-year revitalization plan of downtown (the plan is horrible, btw). However, in the plan, they modified the boundaries of what downtown is. East Papineau has been removed from the primary downtown boundaries (ironic, since this is the worst part of downtown). Griffintown + parts of Little Burgundy are now officially part of downtown and it has been extended South to the river, where a planned community of ~9K units is currently being planned. The "influence zone" is essentially the same thing as a "greater downtown", which would make Montreal's one of the largest downtown's on the continent.
The most current estimate of population downtown is 118,000, up 14% between 2022-23, however, StatsCan, Quebec Institute of Statistics and the city all use different definitions of downtown, so the population growth is most likely higher.
But this makes me wonder, I know other cities in the U.S and Canada have introduced revitalization plans, have they also modified downtown boundaries? It would be awesome to share and compare plans.
- Neighbourhoods within downtown boundaries
- Restaurant scene & diversity
- Nightlife
- Culture
- Urban Planning
- Transport/Green space
- Pre/Post Covid comparisons & recovery (either return to office, pedestrian activity, retail, etc..)
Here's my ranking, below. But also, I'd like to add that a top 25 or so downtowns might be super interesting. Since that might show some cities downtowns that are recovering much faster after the pandemic, and eclipse those that were stronger before.
My top 25--
25 Charlotte
24 San Diego
23 Nashville
22 Austin
21 Minneapolis
15 Dallas
14 Atlanta (midtown & downtown)
13 Miami
12 Washington, DC
11 Seattle
10 Los Angeles
9 Vancouver
8 Philadelphia
7 Boston
6 Montreal
5 San Francisco
4 Chicago
3 Mexico City
2 Toronto
1 New York City
I shouldn't have to say this to someone from NYC, but Jersey City should be in the top 25. I'd also include Portland. Difficult to decide what to remove, though...Minneapolis and Calgary? Should probably just deny ATL the right to include Midtown...that'd knock them out of the top 25
New York City - it was so outsized compared to the rest before the pandemic, and it's recovered relatively well. Midtown with its offices have definitely suffered a bit, but again, it was so packed to begin with that it's still a titan. Meanwhile, Hudson Yards development kept going and while perhaps not as full as originally intended, it's still quite a bit of activity.
Chicago - Strong concentration of institutions there; office vacancies are still pretty high, but it had already shifted towards a lot more residential in the past couple of decades prior to the pandemic and had essentially expanded it out in all directions save for the lake especially the burgeoning west loop. It gets a lot of points for urban planning though as just one of the best looking downtowns around with a lot of engineering marvels and just altogether a great and very distinctive downtown
Philadelphia - The downtown I have the most post pandemic experience with seemed absolutely booming this past summer; while Center City is a major office center, it was also very residential, tourism and nightlife centered before the pandemic and seemed to have retained this and it's fantastic.
Montreal - Similar to Philadelphia above though I think had stronger weight on office jobs? I haven't been to Canada since the pandemic though. I think given the emphasis poster seems to put on livability and liveliness, Montreal's downtown maybe gets ahead of Toronto's for now?
Toronto - It supposedly has been hit harder according to that index and it certainly is a major office center so gets hit with that which is why I put it lower. Prior to the pandemic, I might have put this just below Chicago.
Boston - My most recent experience outside of NYC with and it seemed to be doing fairly well. However, the nightlife component of it isn't great nor is the diversity and options downtown particularly great though that held before the pandemic as well; also MBTA seems to be going through some wild screw ups including within downtown.
San Francisco - Despite being low on the recovery index and high on office concentrations downtown, SF was so outsized that I think it still ranks really high up there. Prior to the pandemic, I probably would have put this above Philadelphia, Montreal, and Boston. I have read that parts of downtown have been getting cleaned up from their pandemic era nadir, and so with the fairly intense built density of San Francisco and the major project of Caltrain electrification where it runs almost at rapid transit levels of service and thus can bring in a large and often wealthy population to and from downtown, I think San Francisco will probably go back up pretty rapidly in the coming years
DC - Seems to have made a decent recovery, but haven't been there since last year; also as a more buttoned-up town, is it wrong to assume that DC employers may be more aggressive with return to office work? DC's downtown was lively from tourists, but not as bustling at night which might have to do with the wide streets and perhaps many still sparsely populated offices. DC's downtown does deserve points for being very distinctive though, so it's hard for me to figure out where to place it on the list.
Los Angeles - Downtown LA also did a large residential shift in the last couple of decades and now has its through-running light rail tunnel underground (still needs to up frequency though which is supposedly coming pretty soon) and has made good recent efforts to clean up its transit system; wasn't there for that opening, but was there fairly recently and large parts of downtown LA were bustling though skid row is still pretty rough.
Vancouver - Supposedly was hit hard by the pandemic, but that high residential component probably still has it doing pretty well.
Seattle - Hard hit like SF and was smaller and less bustling to begin with; maybe tie with Vancouver though because nightlife in Vancouver seems really limited.
If we were doing secondary downtowns, I'd probably put downtown Brooklyn between Chicago and Philadelphia and Long Island City right behind downtown DC.
Re: last sentence, half the top ten could be NYC 'downtowns' if midtown and lower Manhattan are considered separately and Jersey City is included as the de facto 'sixth borough'
Yeah there's a number of tidbits and takeaways from this. It is a lot of data so one can go anywhere with the dissection. Firstly people should see the maps for each city in the Appendix as to which is being determined the "Core Downtown" vs "Greater Downtown". That goes a long way in explaining things. I'll just post the orders and not totals for most of these.
For starters:
PERCENTAGE OF GREATER DOWNTOWN EMPLOYED RESIDENTS WHO WORK IN GREATER DOWNTOWN, 2020:
Midtown Manhattan
Chicago
Washington DC
San Francisco
Boston
Philadelphia
Nashville
Portland
Seattle
Charlotte
Austin
Indianapolis
Denver
Memphis
Dallas
Lower Manhattan
Columbus
Atlanta
Jacksonville
Fort Worth
Houston
Los Angeles
San Antonio
San Diego
Phoenix
San Jose
NET MIGRATION TO CORE DOWNTOWN, Post 2020 loss= Population gain Jan 2021- Dec 2022
Washington DC
Chicago
Midtown Manhattan
Boston
Portland
Atlanta
Philadelphia
Indianapolis
Seattle
Denver
Los Angeles
Dallas
San Francisco
Columbus
Austin
Phoenix
Nashville
San Diego
Houston
Charlotte
San Jose
Jacksonville
Fort Worth
San Antonio
Memphis
RESIDENTS IN GREATER DOWNTOWN IN 2023 Q2 COMPARED TO 2019 Q2:
Portland
Houston
Los Angeles
Dallas
Seattle
San Francisco
Atlanta
Denver
Washington DC
Memphis
Midtown Manhattan
Philadelphia
Charlotte
Lower Manhattan
San Diego
Columbus
San Jose
Boston
Nashville
Austin
Chicago
Indianapolis
Fort Worth
San Antonio
Phoenix
RESIDENTS, WORKERS AND VISITORS IN CORE DOWNTOWN IN 2023 Q2 COMPARED TO 2019 Q2:
Nashville
San Jose
San Diego
Memphis
Philadelphia
Midtown Manhattan
Charlotte
Phoenix
Los Angeles
Houston
San Antonio
Austin
Boston
Indianapolis
Dallas
Fort Worth
Columbus
Seattle
Atlanta
Lower Manhattan
Jacksonville
Chicago
Denver
Portland
Washington DC
San Francisco
NON-RESIDENT WORKERS IN CORE DOWNTOWN IN 2023 Q2 COMPARED TO 2019 Q2:
San Antonio
Nashville
Midtown Manhattan
San Diego
Memphis
Fort Worth
Philadelphia
Charlotte
Houston
Lower Manhattan
San Jose
Los Angeles
Austin
Boston
Dallas
Indianapolis
Phoenix
Chicago
Columbus
Jacksonville
Washington DC
Atlanta
Seattle
Denver
Portland
San Francisco
Data's interesting. Given the last two lists above and the general unremarkable nature of Houston as a city, one could argue that Houston doesn't belong in the top 25 downtown list. No one who's contributed to the thread has disagreed on the top 11 (NYC, Chicago, Toronto, SF, Montreal, Philadelphia, Boston, DC, LA, Seattle, Vancouver), so to me it's the next range that's more interesting. Apologies to Mexico for exclusion, but I'm confining the discussion to the US and Canada
Atlanta's downtown was pretty awful when I visited 10+ years ago, but the stats suggest there's increased activity. I am more partial to 'obviously liberal' places like Portland and Denver, so my idiosyncratic rankings would place them at the very top of the second tier. The last couple lists give me some pseudo-justification for doing so, heh
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 01-21-2024 at 10:10 AM..
Yeah there's a number of tidbits and takeaways from this. It is a lot of data so one can go anywhere with the dissection. Firstly people should see the maps for each city in the Appendix as to which is being determined the "Core Downtown" vs "Greater Downtown". That goes a long way in explaining things. I'll just post the orders and not totals for most of these.
[skippping to the categories where numbers were provided]
Since you posted these in declining order of resident population, the two cities in bold on the second list should be reversed. Also, Los Angeles should appear immediately after Boston.
I also note that Philadelphia ranks in the top 10, usually in sixth or seventh place, in every category except greater downtown population 2023 vs. 2019 Q2. In one category (residents, workers and visitors in the core downtown 2023 vs. 2019 Q2), it's in the top five.
Since you posted these in declining order of resident population, the two cities in bold on the second list should be reversed. Also, Los Angeles should appear immediately after Boston.
"Downtown" is so subjective and varied in its factors that it's literally impossible to create a fair all-purpose comparison. This is true regardless of effort.
Lists like these are fun and have some use, and people like me get paid to create/analyze such things (I do market analysis for construction firms), but their usefulness is limited to the specific questions they address and even that requires detailed context.
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